Care-Experienced People (Mini-Series) - Episode 7: Parenting Without a Blueprint: Care Experience, Trauma, and Building a Village

What happens when you have to parent without a map? In this deeply moving and relational conversation, we sit down with care-experienced mum, kinship carer, and Churchill Fellow Terri-Anne Harmer to explore the complexities of raising a family while carrying the lifelong impacts of trauma and the care system.

For many care-experienced parents, the journey of raising children is often shadowed by a "blueprint of fear" - a fear of systems, surveillance, and the terrifying possibility of child removal. This episode breaks the silence on the "invisible" pressures these parents face, moving away from deficit-based narratives to focus on healing, accountability, and the power of community.

Building the Village We Never Had

Terri-Anne shares her personal and professional journey, offering a unique perspective on breaking intergenerational cycles and reclaiming the narrative of care-experienced parenting. We discuss:

• Parenting Through Fear: How trauma responses are frequently misinterpreted as “risk” by professionals, and the need to look beneath behaviour to understand the survival and overwhelm sitting underneath.
• The Power of Connection: The vital role of peer support and relational spaces in helping parents feel genuinely heard, understood, and empowered.
• A New Blueprint: Insights from Terri-Anne’s Churchill Fellowship, exploring how village-based approaches and community advocacy can interrupt cycles of removal and support families of all ages.

Breaking the Cycle of Trauma

Within the conversation, we reflect on the emotional labour of parenting while healing. We consider how childhood histories shape adult relationships, including:

• Neurodiversity and Masking: The intersection of trauma and late-recognition neurodiversity in adulthood.
• Shame and Repair: Navigating vulnerability and accountability within family relationships to foster long-term healing.
• Systemic Change: Why professionals must adopt a trauma-informed lens to support care-experienced families effectively and move toward trust-based practice.

This episode offers a powerful invitation to consider what becomes possible when we move beyond survival and build something different—together.

In This Episode, We Explore

• Parenting while carrying long-term trauma impacts.
• The fear of systems, surveillance, and child removal.
• Healing while raising children and "building a village."
• Neurodiversity, masking, and intergenerational cycles.
• Why professionals need to look beneath behaviour.

Guest: Terri-Anne Harmer Terri-Anne is a care-experienced mum, kinship carer, practitioner, and Churchill Fellow. Alongside her work with the Care Leavers Association, she supports care-experienced adults through community spaces that centre connection and empowerment.

Key Quotes

• “We’re building the village that we didn’t have when we were younger.”
• “Behaviour is not always the thing. What’s underneath it is what’s important.”
• “You can break the cycle.”

Content Note This episode discusses childhood trauma, care experience, parenting, mental health, neurodiversity, child protection processes, family separation, and systemic responses to care-experienced families. Please listen in a way that feels safe for you.

Subscribe to Trauma Informed Conversations for more honest discussions about trauma, recovery, and building systems rooted in care and humanity.

Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:08

Hello everyone and welcome to Trauma Bond Conversations, a space created by the Trauma Bond Consultative Services and to explore what it really means to build systems and relationships around care, connection, and humanity. I'm Carrie Wilson, the Collaboration and Innovation AI. And my work by this podcast is a practice basic analytics, creating spaces for honest reflection on how we understand trauma, how we respond to it, and how we build systems. This special episode is about a few mini-series exploring trauma and healing, both within the care system and the spaces that surround it, where I invite beautiful, wonderful care-speakers people to lead on an open relational conversation about understanding change and what healing can look like when we do it together. Hello and welcome to today's trauma-informed conversation. I am joined by the fabulous Terrier Anne, and we're going to be talking about some really important uh work and research that you've been doing and around parenting and care experience. But I'm going to hand over to you to introduce yourself because you've just done so much and you're amazing, and I I really want it to come from you about why you why you're doing this work and why you're here.

SPEAKER_01 1:38

Well, thank you, Carrie. It's nice to be here, and I always love how you always make me feel a little bit brighter about the day. So thank you. Um but hi everybody, I'm Carrie Ann. I'm care experienced mum of three. Um, throughout my life, I've also been a kinship parer and also taken in my godchild who still lives here. Um, and I work at the Care Leavers Association on one of the first projects in the UK to recognise how the care experience affects us in our later life as adults. Um I absolutely love the role, um, the community that we've built. We've met some amazing people, and um, it's kind of where I started to see the need for my idea with my virtual fellowship, which I was awarded last year.

SPEAKER_03 2:25

Congratulations.

SPEAKER_01 2:27

Thank you. I'm a bit excited, a bit nervous, and I've been invited here today to kind of tell everyone a little bit about that idea and also just have a chat so we can out there um a little bit more of how that experience still impacts us as we grow up and and be parents. We want to we want professionals also to consider the lens of what they're supporting families.

SPEAKER_03 2:49

Yeah, yeah, absolutely, because we don't just stop being care experienced once we turn a certain age. And um, I think in the previous podcast uh with Dr. Rosie Canning, we talked about her project and the long-term health outcomes of care experienced people, and it's very much very much related in terms of you know, it impacts our experiences and our trauma impacts us as we if we decide to be parents as well.

SPEAKER_01 3:18

And I think we find as well a lot of elder kind of like I'd say 40, 50, they didn't really therapy wasn't a thing, you know, their their needs back then, whether it was neurodiversity or mental health, weren't particularly recognised. So then they've grown up and not not been able to form healthy relationships because of that, and then so many end up not having children and being alone, even not through fear, you know, that they might not be able to do do do it justice, and and they don't want the same things to happen to their children, and some just through not having the opportunity because they haven't healed or don't know how to start or haven't been given the right support. And some of the beautiful people I've met when you hear that you know how isolated some of them were, and just it's so simple what we do, you know, it's not we're not face to face, but having that community that once a month can come online, you don't have to put your camera on, you don't have to talk if you don't want to. We had one lady she came for weeks and we didn't know she was a bot, and then one day we spoke, she sent us an email and she was like, I know I've been silent, but it's the quietest I've ever been, but the most I've ever felt heard in my whole life, and that was like the most impactful thing that was like within the first year of the project, and it stayed with me at so.

SPEAKER_03 4:33

I just want to I want to pause that. I want to pause on that for a second because I feel like you just touched on something really powerful there when we think about people being heard and people listening, and the space that you created for that. And I just want to pick that out a little bit and dig into that if you if you're willing. Yeah. So you were saying that she was there for how many weeks would you say?

SPEAKER_01 5:02

I think it was three or a half off.

SPEAKER_03 5:04

Yeah. And then she's not happens before we realized and then she emailed to say she hadn't listened, she hadn't said anything, but it was the most she'd ever been heard.

SPEAKER_01 5:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 5:19

And what about that space? What about that space made that to feel?

SPEAKER_01 5:23

I mean, you created that space, so I think I think it's just the community that we get each other. That's not saying that everybody's care experience was the same. But it's that it's that space where you can say one thing very small about your experience where if we said it outside of that community, you'd instantly have a thought in your head of do they get it, do they understand, do they think that's too dark? Like, but you can be open here and there's no judgment, there's no we just get it. Like, I know for me, I'm I'm an open book with everyone, and I just like connecting with people I like, you know. Yeah, and I don't know if it's that the role that we've all played, um, will and toy as well. Do you know what I mean? Like how we bounce off each other, we've got that amazing, which I've always said from the start, that that collection of ages. So we didn't we had a full team of care experienced people from all clever of the system, so we could relate on all different levels and in all different ways. And I think it was having that that collective team effort, it meant everyone be able to connect to something. And what was beautiful is because it's people from all walks of life, like care leavers that go on to do some amazing things, you know. We've had future solicitors, people that support around SCN, mums, dads, um artists, with just so many amazing people that come. And I remember one day we were doing, I think it was a parenting session, and a young lady was wanting some support. She was opening up about that she was struggling to get EHTTs and things in place. Um, another lady who's in uh one of our groups who who um is studying it, but also it's affected her, and she's worked in that field. So she instantly was like, in the chat, this is what you do, here's some links, and you just see them, they just connect. So that's a separate connection then that will carry on outside of the group, and it's like it's building a little village, that that village that we didn't have when we're younger, that would have kept us on track and give us that better foundation.

SPEAKER_03 7:28

Oh my god, I love that. You just built the village, yeah. And you and Joe, it's so beautiful to hear this because the ongoing theme as well through quite a few of the previous podcasts has been the awareness of that lack of village and the importance of that village and having space that people understand you, you know, and whether that's with people that are in kinship care or adoptees or care experience and just that important space. Um, and when you and I was thinking as well, because there's a risk, isn't there, with these kind of spaces of potential kind of trauma jump and re-traumatization of others and yourself. Have you found that that has been an issue or is or is that have you been off to kind of start?

SPEAKER_01 8:20

I think what a lot of the people were used to is them kind of groups where that was what you were going to do. Um so at first we just kind of put in the basic things, you know, trigger warnings. We always had one of the members um of the team would be available. Like if you got overwhelmed, you can then private private message that particular team member. So we had little things in place, but I think we were a bit nervous at first to enforce in I don't want to say in a strict way, but you know what I mean to actually enforce it. And then as we went on, we realized some amazing people and they had so much to say, and it was great, but it was at times protect from the group, it could change the dynamic, um, and it could also, you know, upset other people. So we just we we changed the script at the beginning and we we looked at the wording of it, and and it was just about telling people to be mindful, you know, not everyone has has got the same understanding, has had the same experience, so we don't want to affect others, but but there is a space you can either go again to the chat or afterwards if you let us know, we'll hold the space for you outside of the group. Um, and it was just letting them know that it's cool to talk about it, but just know when to pull it back a little bit, you know.

SPEAKER_02 9:33

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 9:34

And people got comfortable with that, and I think the people knew that we're doing it then because you've seen them consciously try and make that effort, and that was nice to see. Because there was something about everybody.

SPEAKER_03 9:46

And do you think then that probably or maybe kind of is then a skill learned that they were able to then take elsewhere as well?

SPEAKER_01 9:56

I think so. I mean, I get some feedback from people, and I because I do check-in, I'm one of them people, I'm used to being a on-the-ground youth worker, so having regular contact with the people I support. I really do try connect, and um sometimes I will get a message back like, you know, if you hadn't taught me that process that day, I wouldn't have got this far. You know, if you want to tell me how to think about it or coach me into seeing it, you know, in a different perspective. And it's nice to know that them little skills go on and they do improve people's lives, even if it is just the tiny seed that was planted with like, look at this link, and this is your rights, you know, that they're now gonna go in the wormhole, aren't they? Because they're gonna want to know everything. So yeah, yeah, I think it does in little ways.

SPEAKER_03 10:42

So it's not about doing it for them, it's just giving them that that safe space to to learn.

SPEAKER_01 10:48

Yeah, we're just holding it together, aren't we? We just this is the space, come along, have a chat. Sometimes there's a theme which is nice, and sometimes we have guest speakers come in. Because a lot of us um are activists. That's that was one of my favourite ones without even realizing it. And um always do big up with him because that's how I kind of got the confidence to to to come into the community and start using LinkedIn and using my lived experience. But they're um the relational activism, you know, you don't have to have to have a charity or a team or an organization. You see something's not right, stand up for it, speak out. Try and make that change in whatever way you can. And I think um the the elder people really love that because it's like they felt like they'd just been wasting the time when they had been shouting about things, and then they realize actually I've been doing a good I am an activist, I've been making changes. So it was nice to see people feel empowered.

SPEAKER_03 11:43

Yeah, so naming that.

SPEAKER_01 11:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 11:46

Naming what they've been doing as something actually really, really powerful. And hearing them.

SPEAKER_01 11:52

Yeah, we've we've got one guy, um, he's lovely, but he lives very far away, he's very isolated like from the world. Um, I don't know what you say ju geographically, yeah. Um, but he's so creative, he does poems, he does artwork, um, and and he's always packing jokes. He's one of them that you can make a statement and somehow it turns into a joke in his head, and he can always like sometimes it's a bit of a thing and I can go and I'm like, oh, I wasn't expecting that, but I just love when he comes along because you don't know what you're gonna get, but you're always gonna get something, and he always makes me smile. Like so it makes my job enjoy, but I don't feel like it's a job. I genuinely I actually look I've I've got another village, do you know what I mean? It's people that I've connected with, even even if it is just in the group, it's a space where I can come away from my friends that don't particularly get it, you know. I practically and talk about my trauma and my healing for them because they don't not that they don't get it, like they haven't had trauma, but they don't get my kind of what's happened. And a lot of people, including family, I don't know if you've had it yourself, you know, they say, Why can't you just leave the past in the past? Actually, read this book and understand what trauma does to you inside your mind. I wish it was last year.

SPEAKER_03 13:09

Yeah, it's so much easier.

SPEAKER_01 13:11

Yeah, I've there's a line, done it, it can come up at any time, you don't know when it's gonna go.

SPEAKER_03 13:17

Yeah, and there's a line in the in the in a lot of the slide, uh a slide that I have in a lot of my training around trauma, and um says you can't positively think yourself out of trauma because it's not it's you know, it gets trapped in your body and you have to process it in the right way. And whether that's through community sharing and understanding or physical, you know, somatic release as well, to just let your body know that it's safe because it's trapped in the nervous system, so yeah, that's really important.

SPEAKER_01 13:49

A lot of us have pushed it down, haven't we? If we've pushed it down, especially as young adults, just to survive, we didn't have a clue what we're doing. Like we just needed to figure it out, and then trying to release that is a longer process. As long as it took to happen, it's gonna take double the time to undo it. And you've got to be prepared to do that. You've got to be prepared because it it it changes your whole life. Once you realise that you you need to heal and you start that journey and you've got it the support in the right way, it can change everything. And I didn't I didn't live I genuinely I existed until I learned that I needed to heal and actually this clutching down wasn't doing no good because I was a mum of three at this point, you know?

SPEAKER_02 14:34

Yeah could we dig into that a little bit? Yeah, dig into that a little bit.

SPEAKER_01 14:41

I think I think where it um where it started is I think I always thought I was switched on because of the life I had, and then when I realized in my relationship I wasn't in a healthy situation, I was quite frustrated that I'd not seen it. How could I not see it after everything I've lived? And I changed my life there, and that's where slowly I could see elements of my trauma. I think I started taking accountability for self, and it was so hard, it was so uncomfortable. And at that time I didn't even consider I had ADHD or anything. So I guess now understanding that, that them intense thoughts and overthinking and self-blame, but then it would come out in ways, you know. I noticed that my daughter would tell herself that she was no good because she'd heard me saying that, you know, lockdown was a hard time, we were all in it together, locked in the house. So anything I was going through in that process, as much as I tried to close the door, keep them entertained in another room, they picked up on it. Yeah, you know, and and I could see it, and I thought, I'm not abusing my kids, I'm not saying what was said to me, I'm not doing what was done to me, but how I am because I've not healed is still having an impact. And I've parented on fear, like if if this impact, then she might need help, and then that might lead to a referral, and then I'm under the microscope, and then they're gonna open the file and say, Oh, Nana was in care, mum was in care, he was in care, right? We've got to remove these kids real quick. I can't let that happen. And that was the moment of okay, I I need help here. I need help.

SPEAKER_03 16:14

So you're parenting through fear, that's an interesting reflection there. Do you feel like that that even yeah?

SPEAKER_01 16:24

Yeah, as a professional, as an academic, as a mum that me my eldest son's 16. You know, I've never my kids have never been any trouble, they're all achieving, attaining. Yeah. But for some reason in my head, I remember, I think when I first noticed this, and that's when I first reached out, I was um when I get overwhelmed, people say, you know, what kind of dark thoughts. I just wanted to go. It felt like everything was closing in. I just wanted to walk away from it all because everything was on me. And one day I walked past the school and I I was just gonna keep walking, and then I had a thought of waiting for my mum at school, what's that gonna do to them? So I went back, I went to the teacher and I said, Look, I need to talk to you. I said, I think you need to take them. I think you need to take them before I ruin them. Honestly, that's that's where I was at. And the the teacher says to me, Mary, you don't see in yourself, do you? You really need and after that moment she helped me implement, but you need to see, and you did a simple diagram, man. This to put my whole thing into perspective. It was a target to say we've got kids in the school, hang in the middle, you know, they need that support, they they might need removal for the safety, for the well-being. We've got kids in the next layer, just need a bit of support, you know, might be struggling with a few things, and then we've got the outer tier, the kids that are just getting on with it, they're achieving, they're happy, you can see they're looked after. So, that's where your kids are, we don't have any concerns. And I was like, really? Because the only concern is you right now, we want to get you the health, and that opened up the door to change for me. Um, I did some sessions with a cluster, and it was about having confidence in my parenting. Every day reminding myself, looking at what I had overcome, what I had achieved. Like, I have a waffing machine in my house. We used to wash clothes in the bath. You know, we have carpets, full carpets on the floor, not just bits that my mum's found outside. Like, don't live in a smoky crack den type house. That's what my living room used to feel like when my mum's friends used to come in. Do you know? I mean, I smoke outside in the steps, come snow, thunder, like I'll be under my umbrella praying, lightning doesn't hit me. Like, I'm very mindful of doing things differently.

SPEAKER_03 18:33

And you have, you have done things differently, absolutely, and that sounds like that there was something around that trauma of your own childhood and that fear of that removal of of um of your children because you just because you care experienced that led you to that, and I think that leads nicely into why you're doing your fellowship, right?

SPEAKER_01 19:01

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it perfectly does actually without even meaning to um so tell me a little bit about that. Well, I wanted to start off by saying like we are very lucky as people like we're both articulate, we've both been educated, we've had that opportunity, we've probably had good people around us that have planted a few seeds. What about the mums and the dads out there that are care experience that haven't had that part articulate? That when they reach out for support, they're actually panicking and they're reacting in a way that their body is telling them to to keep them safe. Their internal family system has said, listen, Terry, you go over there, I'm gonna handle this. And it goes in with all the rage and all the everything that needs to come out to keep you safe. Yeah, and I'm starting to see it in my work. Like I was fortunate I could articulate to the professionals, speak and engage, and know that I was gonna do the work. I'm starting to see parents um and trying to advocate for them, and I was seeing how their former responses were then being interpreted as risk and something that didn't need to ever be a child protection plan was going up to that, and it didn't need to be.

SPEAKER_03 20:15

Um so they weren't seeing the trauma as an out as a behavior.

SPEAKER_01 20:21

In one of the cases, they wouldn't eat they wouldn't, as much as I was trying to get them to consider mum's care experience that apparently they weren't aware of it until we told them. I'm like, well, can you not see the link to why she's reacting the way that she is? Because she just wanted some B support for her son at school. You've gone and brought her abuser back into the situation, hers and her son's abuser, they haven't seen for a long time. This is the first time that she's seen him. You haven't put no former informed preparation before putting her in that space. There's no acknowledgement of the other organizations that have tried to do this before. So at one point, they've put that the fact that mum is not willing to engage and that she's not supporting dad being brought back into the situation for said reasons. Um, that's actually a risk to the son because it's it's stopping him from bonding with that. So I said, okay, I'll accept that going on there then as a potential risk, but only can we consider that there's been a number, and I'd worked at a previous organization that tried to do the reunification, so I was part of that process.

SPEAKER_02 21:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 21:26

Can we not say that actually also dad is a potential risk in that he might not stick to this arrangement? And you've already told the child about this, which mum didn't approve of before you'd even assess dad, which I think is disgraceful. Um can we consider that if he doesn't stick to this arrangement because of little boy's needs and learning and understanding and processing, that this could also have a detrimental effect on him and be a risk? And that they didn't want to accept it. And another thing that we're discussing at a family group conference when you're discussing going from child in To child protection. I'm pretty sure, correct me if I'm wrong, Sam, I'm out of the child loop at the minute, but the child's voice is meant to be at the centre of it.

SPEAKER_02 22:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:10

Yeah, and the meeting was a week away, and the young child had not even been told about an advocate or anyone that could go. So I had links to the children's rights service. I contacted the lady I know and managed to connect the dots with the school. It wasn't in depth as it could have been, but there was enough there to have some of his voice included, but that wasn't being done. So I started seeing things like that. That's just one example to just to give you some context around how something so simple as a parent trying to do the right thing, like mum was literally trying to get the support in place for the son. There was no miss doctor's appointments, dentist appointments, she she engaged with school, he's always well dressed, he's well fed, mum worked. Um, but it's like they were using a mental health, but not considering where the mental health came from in the childhood, and then just putting her to be the blame. And that's how easy it can be. If she'd have maybe not, she did say at one point, like, if I hadn't have had you next to me, I probably would have exploded. Because at some points I'd just put my hand on her knees if I say, I don't know where you're at.

SPEAKER_03 23:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 23:10

We'll get out of it.

SPEAKER_03 23:11

So so in those situations, it feels like her trauma was weaponised.

SPEAKER_01 23:15

Yeah, and but then I've seen it, I've seen that one because it was in the same city, I was able to be there to support them. There's been other ones where I can't and I've had to coach them through emails or phone calls before they're going into these meetings. But with some some of them, it worked and they've come back from that. I'm so glad you told me that. And I have to use, I hate using it, but I think it's quite a good analogy. Is that the right word? Um, it's like a chess game. This is about to be a game of chess. I'm not the best at it, but I know you're either reactive or a premeditated player, and then there's a third one, but I don't consider that one in this analogy. Um and we have to be, we have to be, oh no, we have to be both. That's the third one. We have to be predictive and reactive. We have to be, I'm telling you, the next three suggestions off depth are probably going to be this, this, and this. How you react within them suggestions is going to determine which direction it goes. So we're predicting and then hoping if I'm not there to be with them that they're going to react in the right way at the time.

SPEAKER_03 24:16

So there, you're providing them with uh with a plan and providing them with awareness and for them to be able to have some skills and guidance. So that's amazing that you're able to do that.

SPEAKER_01 24:31

I don't think it's enough, and there's not enough out there, and that's where my idea comes in. So I started.

SPEAKER_03 24:36

Tell me about this idea. Tell me about this idea.

SPEAKER_01 24:39

Everyone wants to know now, they've been they've been listening and like waiting, like, come on, how long? What are you gonna tell us? Um so I started reflecting. Basically, I didn't really recognise or understand how big a fellowship was. We got an email one day. Does anyone want to apply? ADHD Brain said, loads of ideas. So I applied and didn't really realize the magnitude. So I actually met everybody and some of the amazing previous fellows and heard about their achievements. The lady that discovered treatments for sickle cell, a young man that's created former informed-based children's homes. Uh, there was many more. Uh, a lady that had bridged the gap in communities between migrants and people that weren't accepting of them at first. Like there were just some amazing ideas, and that's when I realized And yours one yours is one of them too. Yes, it's carrying responsibility. So I started reflecting on okay, I've I'm being told, and I feel like I've broken the cycle to a point, but how, why? And it came back to yes, it was in fear, but then what supported me whilst in fear, because that was a trigger response, that was a trauma, sorry, trauma response. I had a village that weren't my family, but when I left Pair, I was very, very fortunate to be taken under the wing by friends, their families. Um, and where I live, I live in a very multicultural, diverse area. So I had influence from the ages of 16 to this very day from all over the world. Yeah, Caribbean, Africa, Asia, England, uh, all different religions, all different ages. It was amazing. So when I did become a parent, I think one thing that saved me was I was signed off. I wasn't already under the lens. So when you are a young person that's still signed on as a care leaver, you've still got a PA, you've still got them involved, you're automatically under the lens that ups your chances of removal. So I overcome that barrier just by chance. I didn't become until late through fear. Um, but then the village, you know, when a lot of care leavers that have had children need support, all they know is the system that they come from, they'll go back to them. Instantly puts you under the lens. I was scared to do any of that. But I'd go to my village and I was raised by a lot of strong single women within these communities that taught me how to empower myself through knowledge, how to stand up for myself, how to see the world. Because I grew up quite naive, trusting that all the systems did exactly what they said on there. I'm like, no, it won't be like that. No, it won't be like that. And they taught me differently. So that was how I was able to. Knowledge empowered me and a community that I could turn to. Okay, then how do I put that into an idea? Because then I started seeing that the services that do exist in the UK are only for younger parents, maybe up to 28 at the most. They're amazing, the services that exist and that advocate. So that's not detracting from the work that they do, but they're very fragmented, they're funded in uncertain boroughs, don't take the child after a certain age. There needs to be something that's national that services care experience parents of all ages, because trauma can come out at any time. And sometimes it doesn't have to be trauma, sometimes they just need a bit of support, a chat, somebody that gets it, a connection.

SPEAKER_03 27:53

Someone and just in knowing that they're doing it right. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 27:56

Because you don't know, because you you're going from the blueprint.

SPEAKER_03 27:59

Yeah, what the blueprint? Well, I'm not doing that, but is this good enough? Because you thought, oh no, well, I'm not doing that, but I'm not good enough. And it wasn't until somebody said, You are doing perfectly fine, and that they're doing great, that you're like, Oh, okay, I didn't realise that because there's no end to measure yourself off.

SPEAKER_01 28:17

And and I think that's where the idea comes from. I need to find create a model that supports care experienced people of all ages throughout their life, like a family would. Um I'm just there to listen to family privilege. Yeah, yeah, family privilege to to empower each other, to support each other, like the connected community does, like my village did for me and supported me. Um, but it's more also based on the intergenerational thing. You know, there's my nan, my mum, myself, my siblings were all in care. My kids have never had a social worker. So I had to consider why hadn't the system stepped in, what had changed throughout the system. So I looked into the history um and had a few conversations with some amazing care experienced researchers, and um I started to realise actually the first model of care in the UK was a kinship model. If Suzanne down the road sadly passed away, and little Johnny would get taken in by the neighbours, and the community just stepped in and did that. If you know, I remember my nana telling me Scouts in Liverpool back in the day, it came about from all the poor people whoever got paid that day, make a big pot, everyone would chip in and it'd feed the whole street. Like it was community. That's what we're lacking now, it's community. So that made my idea more strong, right? We need a community, we need to use the idea of what I'm doing at the CLA, my lived experience, and I need to come up with a way to provide the support. So that's it. I want to break into general intergenerational cycles of crowd removal by advocating and empowering relational support.

SPEAKER_03 30:02

And you're doing that by learning where it's working, right? You're going and you're traveling, you've got your plans that have been changing lots, and because the world is we're walking plans yet because we can still change, I confirmed them, and then it went peak tongue.

SPEAKER_01 30:17

So I'm not jinxing it this time. I will update everybody when everything is solidified this time.

SPEAKER_03 30:23

But you've been doing a lot of research, you know, you've been looking internationally about what's working because there are spaces that it's working, right?

SPEAKER_01 30:30

Yeah. And and surprisingly, there are spaces where a care system doesn't necessarily exist after a certain age, but there are ways where these villages and the support is being in place. Um, and there are lots of services all around the world that that you know everyone's kind of recognized that prevention is better than removal. Um, but I guess in different countries how the law is written, how it applies, changes how you really do it. And that's what I've found really interesting.

SPEAKER_03 30:59

And funding for early intervention.

SPEAKER_01 31:02

Yeah, and that that was also interesting. So in some of the countries I were looking at, with the village model, for example, um, I was speaking to a previous fellow who was saying some of the challenges are that the majority of the people that that are keeping this village going are the elders, and they've still got that mentality from back in the days. And a lot of the youngers, it's about self-preservation and survival nowadays, do you know what I mean? And and everybody's struggling. So where it's not resourced, like a bit like England, we're now campaigning, aren't we, to get Kinkit better resourced and better funded for the carers and for the model to keep it going, uh, to inject more money so that we can make that the main model to go to. There isn't that in some of the countries. So, how do we keep the model going? So it's going to be interesting to hear from people what their suggestions are of what are they gonna do if it breaks down? What can they do to keep it going? Um so yeah, I'm looking forward to finding out lots of things, but it's also interesting to see that in some of the countries that maybe you wouldn't expect, they've got policies that you'd think we definitely have. So there's one country they've got something called the 0 for 3 policy, and it's where we're absolutely necessary we do not remove the child between 0 to 3 because there is that that is that is the ages where your schemas are formed and your attachment is formed, and there's evidence that shows that if we can try not to remove them, they've got better long-term life outcomes. So it's called the 0 to 3 policy, and that was taught that was created by a politician who started putting some structures in place for the care system in the country, and they'd visited the children's home and seen babies in dark rooms not being interacted with, and he said it broke his heart. The institution implement yeah, he started to implement that policy. And that when I when I got that, that sent me into a four-day wormhole of just literally trying to find everything about this country. Um, and I now feel quite educated about it.

SPEAKER_03 33:01

So hopefully that's the ADHD, choice of ADHD, hyper hyper focus.

SPEAKER_01 33:06

But that's another thing that I didn't even realise how that was impacting my parents. I didn't even know I had it. Yeah. I didn't even realize how that could have, you know, that um me and my brother were saying the other day, he said, you know, when I used to live with you, because I was a kinship carer to him, and um, you know, when you used to tell me off or something, he said you'd tell me off, you'd make the point, but then you'd go on and on and on. Like you were writing an essay and try to evidence your point further. He said, and I hated it at the time. He said, but then when I went to live on my own, especially in student halls where he was sharing with people that nagging to be clean and take care of himself. He said, I was so glad you did it. He was so glad you did it. He said, I'm so living in his his flat is absolutely immaculate. He's got his set he also got ADHD, um, but he's got the set routine and and and he's living his best life, but he he attributes that to me going on and on and on as much as he hated it at the time. So I know I know it does it can help, but it's frustrating for them, and especially at the time, nobody knew, did they? I didn't know, Liam didn't know he had it, I didn't know I had it, and it's watching him go on his discovery journey, he got his files and seen it, and then he was like, But I see it in you, and then it was when I started work at the CLA. Have you been assessed? I'm like, no, what's your? I'm fine, I just need pull of pens and post-its, I know how to handle myself, I'm good. But then the more I started learning and seeing about it and and actually seeing traits, I was like, oh.

SPEAKER_03 34:35

There's something there around that history as well, isn't there? Because as a parent, it took you to, you know, having three kids, kinship career, to, you know, but well into your adulthood really, of going, oh wait, something isn't quite right here. Um, because there's a lack of that, I guess, picking up on those health needs in in the care system.

SPEAKER_01 35:00

I think it's where it's complicated because I'd always attribute it to my mental health and thought I was hyper-vigilant, that's why I don't keep still, that's why I talk so much.

SPEAKER_03 35:09

Like and there is a strong link, there is there is a strong crossover, yeah. So the same symptoms of of trauma. Um, and that's why they, you know, when you have the assessments I know and I had mine, uh fellow spicy brain, um that's why they ask you around, you know, behavior when you're a child and whether an impact on what trauma did you have. And yeah, so it does make a definitely makes a difference. But I think what I was thinking about was that that because I reflect uh, you know, me, I'd reflected a lot on on my my mum's cycle too, because she was, you know, her and her siblings were either put into care adopted or in kinship care. Um so the same as same as you, you know, the cycle stopped with me. I've had no interaction. Um and when I think back to even uh my grandma and the fact that one day she just she just left the house, she just left the kids. You think that's overwhelmed.

SPEAKER_01 36:16

No one's short in a no one.

SPEAKER_03 36:20

She couldn't handle it. She was just overwhelmed. My um as on ancestry did it, ancestry deaning, managed to somehow get in touch with like my grandma's cousin who lived in America, old guy. Um and he was saying uh that she what words did he use? Like just a bit of a wild child. And I'm like, yeah, probably described me, definitely my daughter, like and probably my mum. And I'm like, that's generational, like neurodiversity that's come down unrecognized, uh unsupported. And uh you know, uh my mum she had a trauma, but also she just wanted to help everybody, she had a beautiful heart, and she just uh didn't have the framework or the pattern to know who was good and who wasn't, who was going to take advantage, and and then she got into numbing of pain, and and when you think about neurodiversity and when it's overwhelming, numbing is a very easy option to do because there's a and we've gone a completely down a different path here, haven't we? But you know, that that connection between neurodiversity and addiction as well, and that numbing.

SPEAKER_01 37:35

I was gonna say, but it's a good thing that we went down that path because before I became a mum, I numbed. I didn't use hardcore substances, but I smoked and I drank, and that was my numbing. I was scared to do anything else because I'd seen it, you know, I'd seen people overdose, I'd seen injecting in not a normal way, I'd I'd seen all that side. And I was very fortunate that that my friends, when I was a teenager, kind of if I was ever in a position where I was offered a hardcore substance, my friends would jump in and first of all, have a go at me, like don't you even think about it if I find out you have, and then they'd have a go at the and if I find out you have, I'm gonna check you out. So I was very fortunate in that sense. But my fear just never wanted, I just never wanted to go down. I'm scared of having needles now, just as an adult. Because I just think, how am I gonna react to that medicine? Not everybody reacts the same, yeah. Um, but I numbed, and then it was like, okay, I need I need to make a choice now. I'm back to be a parent, and if I do that, does that mean I'm gonna go down another route? Could I be like my mum? That's that thing in the back of my head, can't be like my mum. I understand her now, and and that's a different part of it, but it took for her to die for me to be able to understand her. It took me to read my files and telling some stuff to be able to feel empathy for her and not anger anymore. And I still do get a bit like, hmm, I can do it, why didn't you? Yeah, we made those choices, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 38:56

Yeah, that's a little bit in a child just saying, Why couldn't you do it? Why couldn't you have done it for me? Yeah, and that is that's a little bit that that childhood trauma, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 39:04

And that trauma inner children's choice at some point, I think, with well-being parents, you know, we have to choose healthier behaviours if if we want to make if we want to break them cycles, but is that always possible when you've got no support network, when you've got no one to look up to, when you've got no guidance? No, it isn't because it's it's harder to step out of your comfort zone. It's easier to just stay where you've known and what you feel safer to you.

SPEAKER_03 39:30

Yeah. And I I it was a lockdown. I I stopped drinking, I haven't drank since so what's that? Oh god, six years now. Um and looking back, like I would was never never never like uh an alcoholic or anything, but definitely is a numbing tool. But it was a numbing tool to like socializing and being around people and being able to cope. And then obviously we were in lockdown for two years. Um, so it was easier. I loved lockdown, it was like the best.

SPEAKER_01 40:02

I kind of missed it, I hated it at the time, but I loved it now.

SPEAKER_03 40:05

And I think that was a big indicator when we came out of lockdown, and I think all of the the things that we built up during our, you know, becoming an adult of Waze and Masking, they didn't exist anymore because we've been in lockdown, so my my body and my mind had forgotten how to do it. So then I just found the world very overwhelming. Um and I think those, you know, you get to a certain age and uh especially when you've got neurodiversity, you uh they hit you harder. Um hormonal changes, we get them younger. Um and uh yeah, that kind of led me to go, oh, actually this is this isn't just uh overwhelm, this is something else. Uh it took that, you know, it took till uh I can remember actually having my uh dyslexia, well my neurodiversity dyslexia assessment with university, I was doing the middle of my PhD and um and the woman was like getting dyslexic and dysraptic. Um and I was like oh yeah, and I was like, Oh, I just thought I was stupid. She's like, You're doing a PhD? I was like, Yeah, I just thought it was stupid though. Because I can't remember something. You told me some a fact and I can't remember it. I can't spell this word. I'm trying to bring up that information that I know that I know, but I can't do it. Have I got Alzheimer's? Have I got Alzheimer's in my 30s? I don't know. All these days.

SPEAKER_01 41:36

Every week I've been re meeting them like, yeah, I'm pretty sure I've got early onset Alzheimer's because I cannot remember what I've done for the last week.

SPEAKER_03 41:43

Yeah. Yeah, but it's but then we were able, we've been able, but even later than we should have done, to get that support and get that acknowledgement of the need and better ourselves and have more knowledge about ourselves and have those things, and I think there's something really important about those networks because I've experienced them, you know, I've done a lot of travelling around the world and met so many I call them my care siblings, you know, we've got them all over the world, but it's that community, isn't it? And then we have the joys of the internet, which can be bad, but also really positive in in helping create those, you know, you've got those weekly Zoom sessions that you have, you know, that's a network, it's in the virtual space.

SPEAKER_01 42:32

And the magazine that gives them people space to tell their story, like they might not feel confident to say it in in a group or to another person physically, but they want to be heard and they want and and it gives people an opportunity to do that. And I think that's another big another thing that people appreciate. Um, and it and it teaches them things, you know. It's we talk about the history of the care system, different policies, we explain how it's affecting or how it's going to affect. And again, that's all part of empowerment, giving people knowledge and skills, giving people links, resources, so they don't have to go back to them systems. And a lot of us as adults don't want to, we're scared of them, do you know what I mean? Or we don't trust them because we've been failed by so many or hurt by so many of them. So why is there no consideration that communities can do this? Like it needs to be more, it needs to be more widely a bit. I don't know how we do it because obviously it's I do believe the system's broken, I think it's flawed by design. I think they've wanted to break down families, make us easier to be controlled.

SPEAKER_03 43:36

That's a completely different conversation, I know, but we've lost we've lost community in well it's a it's a it's a f it's a system of risk, risk based. But then if you're not if you're looking at trauma and behavior as a risk instead of understanding it as trauma, it's never gonna work, is it?

SPEAKER_01 43:53

But then sometimes as well, I don't know if it's the right time in the conversation, but we we both know. Do you know what I mean? It doesn't matter even your background. You can be a successful person, have a career, have already had a child child, um, and then the system and how it's laid out can still try and preempt you as risk. We we both have a you know a lady. Um, and this is something that I want anyone that's professionally NHS, please consider this because we are doing a little bit of research and a little resource on it, but the system preempts just by you saying that you've been in care. You know, a lady went and found out she was having a second child, he's established in a field of work, he's already raising a child, fills out this form, kicks the box to say, you know, spent time in care. And next thing the midwife is trying to put checking whether she needs to put a referral through instantly. Now I had that experience. Did you as well? I see I declared it all the way through my pregnancies, and nobody, it's like it won't. Yeah, which I'm very passionate for, do you know what I mean? But when people are telling me this, I'm like, really? I was like, I've got everybody and known with bothering.

SPEAKER_03 45:06

Yeah, yeah, yeah. That that happened to me. And um, they took me into a little room to talk to me about um domestic violence. And the risk of domestic violence.

SPEAKER_01 45:20

I understand the the premise of why, but then I don't understand the why the way it's done. You just instantly, it's the lens like because the mum.

SPEAKER_03 45:29

And they did they did send a referral back to my local authority. I was in my 30s. Yeah, yeah, because someone was working there that I knew, and they were like, Yeah, they sent a referral back.

SPEAKER_01 45:38

See, that needs to change, and that's what I want my work to do is to is to really make even if you're a professional within that and you see that on a form that you've got to fill out. If you understand that lens, you can be going to your boxes and like what is the necessity of this here? And is there a better way of doing it? I understand we have to safeguard and cover our backs, I get all that side, but what about seeing these as real people? You know, uh it's like it's like people getting get into a role, and the system doesn't see that the people in that role are people and they've lived lives and got past and made mistakes, but because we've got a slightly different label added onto our, we've got an extra post-it on our board, it's it's like suddenly we're seen as as completely different, even as you know what I mean. Men men get a hard deal. I'm not saying women don't, but I have to advocate for all sides. I've I've witnessed men as parents try and get support, and they're not even viewed through the same lens as a mother, is just in like as a parent, that he can't care the same way, and this can't be altruistic, and or it's about getting at mum, and it's like it's really not if you listen to what they're saying and what you're suggesting, and you put the child in the middle, what he's saying works better in favour for the child, and he would know that because he lives with the child 24-7. Yeah, how can we just dismiss that? And they're not whereas if it was a mother saying that, depending on how it was said with a woman, would then be determined how it was taken on board, and the systems that did either do see it and don't care or or they're just oblivious to it. But that needs to change.

SPEAKER_03 47:11

It's a blind spot, it's a kind of a weird I guess understanding that and maybe in you know, uh historically those roles have been different, right? Uh I guess maybe in the Western world, but not always, you know, globally in different societies and communities. Um but actually there is definitely more active parenting and the opportunity for the active parenting. And you know, it's the world that we live in, isn't it? Both parents you you know, if you in a couple, both parents have to work usually these days. Um and so those those parentings uh they are shared. And it might be the mum that's outworking. And we can't make those assumptions about that. That actually just because of agenda, they may know what's best or not.

SPEAKER_01 48:09

It's um it's sad when you see it in real time. But it it it is it's heartbreaking and and I just really need I really need to get this idea on the ground because I've already got evidence just in the way that I've supported people. And and also I want to put precare experience parents listening, like don't think that your mistakes make you a failure. Don't think that you have to define you, and don't think that you can't do it and break the cycle because you can. And there's a whole community of us out there that will support you, even if it's just by listening or finding you the right organization. Yeah, just know that that it's not formal, it's not established yet. But I'm telling you from the community, we're all here, we're all here, and if you need us, just reach out like social media, the the actual uh platform for the CLA, find us and our you know, mentoring profiles or our coaching profiles. Like we will sign post if you if you are scared to reach out for a surface, but you know you need some support, just let us know. And we'll see.

SPEAKER_03 49:18

And that's the care that's a carelavers connected um project, isn't it, that you're talking about?

SPEAKER_01 49:24

Yeah, and on social all the social media handles think are just the Carelavers Association, but that's our project on them.

SPEAKER_03 49:30

Yeah, yeah. That's amazing.

SPEAKER_01 49:34

And and also don't be afraid to take accountability for self and and and and move forward. It's hard, it's uncomfortable, but once you do it and you can see how maybe some of your comforting behaviours or some of your traumas coming out, it's it's okay. I I want people to know. Some people say, you know, you're a bit too honest in how much you've woken up and things like that. No, that's being authentic. I want people to know that we can sit in uncomfortableness, and it's okay. It's okay. I'm I'm a working professional, I'm a mum, I'm functioning, but it's okay that I have this side of me too, and it's okay to talk about that because so many people are scared and they think that if they do, the kids will be taken away because they've been too honest, that people are gonna judge them, people won't want to be around them. No, no, we need more of these conversations. People need to start getting uncomfortable with being uncomfortable because that's the only way people's voices are heard, it's the only way change happens, it's having genuine conversations, not just saying what we think people want to hear.

SPEAKER_03 50:39

You know, I was saying exactly the same thing yesterday, um, around that that uncomfortable uncomfortableness to hear and see trauma, and that I feeling like being a pinpoint somewhere in a lot of the issues that we face is that it's so it can be really uncomfortable to hear it and acknowledge it, and actually to acknowledge it is to be able to connect and to move through through it, you know, because it's not stuck in in a shame cycle, and it's lovely.

SPEAKER_01 51:18

They didn't take accountability to us, there's your social work or your foster parents or or your parents, none of them took accountability to us, and that's one thing I pride myself on as a parent is we have not a forum, but like in my house, we have a system where we hold people accountable. Sometimes the kids don't quite use the system the way it's meant to be used, but we can call each other out and and we don't dismiss, like I'll give you an example. My eldest was to be winding and he's just prodding my daughter. Yeah, and he's going, Mum, I'm not even prodding her hard. Okay, you might not be intending to, but you can't tell her how she does or doesn't feel. So she's asking you not to do it. You need to apologize and you need to not do it, and I'll leave them to sort it out. When my trauma seeps out and I start ranting, Mum, Mum, do you want a second in the corner? So I rant in my corner of my kitchen. So they'll leave me for a second to let it out, and then I'll go back in and I'll be like, Yeah, guys, I'm sorry about that. And I'm not scared to say sorry to my kids, I'm not scared to say that I get it wrong because I didn't have a blueprint. And I think I think a lot of parents are scared to do that because we don't know how to take accountability because it wasn't done for us. But when you do it, then that that issue's done, and then you can move forward. If you don't, it's like your trauma, it's just getting pushed down to your feet and it just marked up or marked off.

SPEAKER_03 52:37

Yeah, and you go into that same shame cycle. So um it was making me think of Breni Brown and her work on vulnerability, her research on vulnerability. Um and kind of like the antidote to that shame. And there's a few steps of shame resilience structures, you know. I do particularly like the word resilience, but that's another conversation that um so first recognizing and reacting, so understanding your personal shame triggers and how your body feels when you experience them. Practice critical awareness, so reality check the messages and expectations that trigger that shame. Uh reach out, share your experiences with people that you trust. Uh and speak the shame. Use the actual word shame to break its power.

SPEAKER_01 53:25

Everything we've just been talking about.

SPEAKER_03 53:27

Absolutely. And um You know, I really I I it made me think about because I did the Brene Brown uh Dirty Lead leadership, um the lovely Lacidish, um and we did a a piece of work around shame in in the it was a workshop in person. And um at the time I was really struggling to uh get pregnant and I had a I I I I felt shame around it and I didn't name it until that point. But but then once I named it and I just was able to let it go. That's crazy how that when we think about it and when we internalise it and push it down, push it down, and push out. We don't want to talk about it. It is shame, trauma, same thing.

SPEAKER_01 54:21

Yeah, I get I get them moments, even still now, while I'm going through the healing process, like as let's just say the kids argue. Um and I don't understand as the as as I was the oldest of my siblings and I had to parent them, so I didn't have a sibling relationship with them. I don't actually know what it's like to have a sibling relationship with my siblings.

SPEAKER_02 54:45

Yeah, I mean, yeah, I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 54:46

I don't get it to me because I was the mum, so I had to stop the squabbling, otherwise, I was in for it by my mum because she couldn't do what she was doing because of the noise. So um, when my kids squabble, it it triggers something in me, and and it and I tell you instantly in my brain, I go to right, so if I was to die tomorrow, these are just gonna squabble forever and they're not gonna look after each other. I saw honestly, that's what goes to my brain. But before I understood that, I would just turn around with it, we're gonna each other. I don't hit you, we don't reason each other. So do you think it's okay? And and it would come out like that. But inside it was the fear that they're not gonna look after each other, that that family unit won't be when I'm not there, and and that's it's just something as simple as that that can realize your brain and yeah, and bring it to the surface. But then once I realize it's like I can have conversations with my my daughter, especially, you know, that's very emotionally intelligent because I talk about these things. I get phone calls from school, like she's so articulate, she's so aware, and I said because I openly talk about these things because she can understand it. Yeah, you know, the world is complex, and kids nowadays they're so strange, they fall out over chat GBT. This is the new thing. You get a long message from Chat GBT talking about boundaries and mental health, which is what kids do to each other now, but they don't half of them don't understand what they're saying and what they're putting out there. So when my daughter was like, Mum, she's talking about trauma because I stopped talking to her at lunchtime, that doesn't make sense. She's very aware, she's cottoned on. So I I know that by as parents being able to open it up, and it doesn't mean you lay it all on to the kids at all, but by when you see them in a trauma mode, helping them understand trauma through your understanding of self, you give them knowledge of self from an early age, something we didn't have. Yeah, we were dismissed and ignored and not listened to, so we lost confidence in our voice. Empower your kids, empower them, give them everything that we didn't have.

SPEAKER_03 56:53

I think that's uh maybe a really brilliant line to to close off, otherwise we could be here all day, you know.

SPEAKER_01 56:59

I know, I know, and I'll go off on many a path and tangent.

SPEAKER_03 57:04

So give me one thing that you would like our listeners to remember them today.

SPEAKER_01 57:20

I'll reiterate what I said to care experience parents earlier. It may feel right now that you're alone in this, but you're not. There's people there that can listen, support, signpost, and understand, so reach out. Don't go through this on your own because you don't have to. And to the professionals, always remember that there's two sides to that lens that you're looking through. And neither one is always 100% right. Just be considerate, be considerate to the person. Behaviour is not always the thing. What's underneath it is what's important.

SPEAKER_03 57:57

Thank you so much. Thank you so much for joining us today. I'll bring you back once you've finished your fellowship as well.

SPEAKER_01 58:05

Yes, thank you so much.

SPEAKER_00 58:15

Thank you so much for joining us.