The Art of Listening - Moving from "Fixer" to Supporter

The Art of Listening - Moving from "Fixer" to Supporter

In a world that moves quickly toward solutions, simply sitting with someone in their discomfort can feel counterintuitive. Yet, as we explore in this episode, true support often comes from doing less, not more. We are joined by Angelique Tavernier, founder of Clarity Ahead, to discuss the transition from being a "rescuer" to becoming a genuine listener.

We often jump into "fixer mode" because emotions make us uncomfortable, and providing a solution helps us feel more in control of the situation. However, rushing to "fix" can inadvertently invalidate the other person's experience and shut down their internal processing.

In this episode, we explore:

• The Psychology of the Fixer: How our desire to feel useful often leads us to bypass the emotional work necessary for healing.
• The "At Least" Trap: Why well-meaning phrases like "at least..." or "everything happens for a reason" can make a listener feel judged or dismissed.
• The Three Components of Active Listening:
  • Asking Open Questions: Using "what" and "how" to encourage reflection instead of defensiveness.
  • Summarising: Reflecting back what you’ve heard in the speaker's own words to check understanding.
  • Reflecting Emotions: Recognising the feelings behind the words to show the person they are truly seen.
• Silence as a Tool: Understanding that silence equals "processing" and learning to resist the urge to fill the gap.
• Setting the Stage: The power of asking a simple question before a conversation starts: "Do you want to vent, do you want advice, or do you need a distraction?".
• Building Psychological Safety: How managers can use coaching skills to foster trust and confidence within their teams.

Practical Takeaways:

• Drop the "Why": Replacing "why" with "what" or "how" prevents people from feeling defensive and forced to justify their feelings. 
• Practice in Low Stakes: Start honing your active listening skills during casual conversations about holidays or meetings before applying them to high-stress situations.

By embracing the idea that "less is more," we allow others the space to find their own solutions while ensuring they don't feel alone in their struggle.

About Our Guest:

Angelique Tavernier is the founder of Clarity Ahead, a consultancy dedicated to helping individuals and organisations overcome barriers to professional progress through reflective, empowering coaching. With over 12 years of experience in higher education, learning design, and professional development, Angelique holds a Post-Graduate Diploma in Career Guidance and a Post-Graduate Certificate in Academic Practice.

Her work is grounded in values of clarity, empowerment, and inclusivity, blending mindset coaching with strategic training to build human-centered learning cultures. Whether supporting a transition to hybrid learning or helping managers foster psychological safety, Angelique’s mission is to help people build the confidence and self-sufficiency needed to take ownership of their own growth.

Learn More:

To learn more about Angelique's work, visit Clarity Ahead. For more resources on trauma-informed communication and to explore upcoming workshops, visit the Trauma-Informed Consultancy Services website.

Subscribe to Trauma Informed Conversations for more honest discussions about trauma, recovery, and building systems rooted in care and humanity.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:09

Hello and welcome to Trauma Informed Conversations, the podcast about trauma, healing, and hope.

SPEAKER_02 0:22

Hi everyone, welcome back to another episode of Trauma Informed Conversations. Today we're talking about a super important topic: listening without trying to fix somebody. I'm delighted to be joined by the lovely Angelique. Hi Angelique.

unknown 0:38

Hello.

SPEAKER_02 0:39

Did you want to introduce yourself to the lovely listeners?

SPEAKER_00 0:43

Yeah, um I'm Angelique Tavenier. I um own a company called Clarity Ahead, which is focused on coaching and also training in coaching skills, but also to support more like the everyday interactions. So, for example, creating a psychologically safe environment in an organization.

SPEAKER_02 1:03

That's so interesting, and you know, really so much synergy between what we do at TICS as well, actually. What does that mean to sort of be psychologically safe? So whether, yeah, whether you're listening because you're a parent, a carer, a professional partner, a friend, a colleague, you know, um, I think all of us have probably been drawn to this episode for that very purpose, Angelique, of kind of really thinking about, you know, it's difficult, isn't it? You know, to kind of not go into that sort of fixer mode. And I guess, you know, that's kind of really what we're here to think about, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00 1:36

So yeah, I mean, I I am used to, I'm used to um before I did my postgrad in career coaching, um, which was many moons ago, but before that, I will I will say that I was a fixer, um, completely, ultimately a fixer. And then through like the different interactions with people, you realise how valuable listening is, and it's more valuable than trying to fix something. But also you kind of indirectly end up fixing something by just listening, but you're helping the other person fix the problem rather than you trying to do it, and that's quite difficult to get your head around, I think.

SPEAKER_02 2:14

It really is, and yeah, like you, I too was a fixer, and I must admit, being authentic, I sometimes still drift a little, like it's hard and not, isn't it? I think it's really part of that human experience, you know, especially when perhaps you know there's something that has been activated with that within us, you know, you know, it made us feel anxious, powerless, uncomfortable that maybe somebody else was kind of going through something.

SPEAKER_00 2:42

Yeah, I will say that listening or active listening, um, practice makes improvement, practice doesn't make perfect, unfortunately, that you always have to try. And we are people at the end of the day, so trying to go against our fixing nature can be difficult. And like you've just said, like, especially if you've been through what you perceive to be a similar experience to the other person, it's really hard to not want to share that. But that's like actually quite detrimental to share your own experience, which it also seems counterintuitive, but yes, uh difficult one.

SPEAKER_02 3:17

It does, especially when we know that it can be so invalidating, right? But why do you think as humans we sort of move into fixing mode so quickly? And is there something from your own professional experience that you found has kind of helped people to not go there?

SPEAKER_00 3:34

Um, I would say that we like to feel useful, and the way that we feel useful is basically to just jump in there and try to make the person, I don't know, feel like they can go somewhere, they can move on, but without us actually investigating what the real problem is, we're like, let's just throw a fix in because it will also make us feel better, it will make us feel more in control of the situation. And emotions make us super uncomfortable. And the best way to kind of override those is to go, let's go to fixing, I can't deal with that kind of thing. And yeah, you need to enable people to process those feelings before they're even ready to go to fix mode. But yeah, I think we tend to all um we tend to just like, oh, let's bypass the emotional stuff and go straight to fixing, but also um, which I imagine we'll talk about more later, but also there's that silence part that nobody feels comfortable in silence, and you really have to try not to fill it when you're trying to do effective like listening with people. Uh yeah, so we're like, oh, how can I fill this silence? Either I'll throw some ideas about how you could, you know, fix this situation or give you an experience because you know maybe that will help.

SPEAKER_02 4:54

Yeah, yeah. And I thought it's so ironic because we've been doing that on this episode together, actually, kind of like one of us and quiet, let's now rush in and kind of fill that silence. But I think you know, from a psychological point of view as well, silence equals processing. So that's all making you might have asked me a really good question, and actually I've found you relatable. You know, I feel like yeah, Angelique's gonna be a good person actually, that I want to talk to about this, and I might just be kind of getting my words, getting my thoughts together, and then you've come in and you've asked me another thing. And because I think sometimes we think silence might mean maybe that the other person perhaps didn't understand what we were asking, or and perhaps that reframe or that moving on might then completely break that kind of thought traffic that I was trying to process.

SPEAKER_00 5:44

Yeah, and you see it and it in a completely different situation, yeah. But you see it when um people present something and at the end they go, are there any questions? And then they go like give you two seconds, and then they're like, Um, no, okay, great. And then they just walk off. But actually, you need to give that uncomfortable silence to allow people to think well, to reflect on what you've presented on, and then think about it kind of questions that they want to ask and the relevance and stuff. And it's the same thing when it comes to listening skills, people need that space to think and process their feelings or thoughts, or in order to respond to your questions. That's yeah, silence is golden. And also, yeah, we've talked about like it's you want to immediately jump into filling the silence, yeah, but they will do that for you, actually. So if you give the silence, they will automatically they want to also contribute. So you don't have to, just give them time to think and then they'll jump back in again.

SPEAKER_02 6:46

It's true, it's true. I've been thinking about that song actually that's kind of why I'm trying not to laugh because you're making such a good point, Angelique. But there is a song Silence is Golden. Maybe that could be like the intro and outro music to this episode, whoever knows. But something that'll be really fun to do, maybe for a couple of minutes is I sort of thought about a couple of like those sort of phrases that we all use, right? So someone's just shared something really tricky, yeah. And all these things, by the way, there's no judgment, is there, Angelique, in terms of what we're saying, like we too will own it, we have done and said these things, but there's kindness behind each of them, right?

SPEAKER_00 7:25

So things like at least oh my god, I was gonna totally bring these up as well. But yeah, yeah, the so at least have you tried everything happens for a reason. Um, I know exactly how you feel. Do you? Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_02 7:43

So it's true, it's true. Um, yeah, just stay positive. Yeah, I know, or other people have it worse, and there's always kindness behind that. You know, again, you know, what you were saying before really resonated with me about, you know, it requires a little bit of vulnerability on our part to sit with the uncomfortable nature of what somebody else is feeling, rather than, you know, actually these things we're saying for ourselves, aren't we? We're trying to kind of ease a little bit of that discomfort, maybe. But what sort of impact do you think those kinds of responses could have? So, again, we've said that they are inadvertent, you know, unintentional, but what might that do to our listener?

SPEAKER_00 8:30

Uh often it will shut them down, so then they'll just stop sharing. Uh, if you start giving them advice, they could also uh this is also what I do, um, is that you just keep going, yeah, yeah, I'll totally try that. I'll totally try it. And then you're just kind of saying it because you just want this experience to end as quickly as possible because it's not proving valuable. Um, it also can make them feel very judged um or dismissed. It depends which kind of phrasing you're starting with, but that it's the least useful way to try and listen to somebody is to use those kind of phrases to essentially shut down the conversation, even though you're not trying to.

SPEAKER_02 9:13

Yeah, it's interesting. So in that case, Angelique, you know, what might genuine listening look like? You know, how do we, you know, maybe for our listeners, you know, many of them have kind of come into this, you know, due to kind of that desire to help, you know, people feel a little bit better or to, you know, have some support. You know, how do we genuinely listen and maybe try to avoid that powerful pull towards being a fit?

SPEAKER_00 9:44

Uh so active listening is golden. It's it you can use it in like your day-to-day, you don't need to just hold it for when somebody's going through a really difficult situation. Uh so there are like three components to active listening, really. There's one which is asking the open questions, and for that part, as a tip, I would say drop why from your vocabulary, because that even when well-meaning, even when positively phrased, it often makes people defensive and obvious, and then when it is coming to a difficult situation, again, they might well, they'll stop sharing and they'll immediately try to justify everything that they've said or done, and it stops any kind of reflection. So I think open questions are underrated, but they are seriously important to kind of help people sort of reflect on the situation or how they're feeling, and that could even be something as simple as when we're thinking about usage in day-to-day, asking people, how was your holiday? But it's not just like that, it's uh now going on to the next stage. Oh, what kind of stuff did you um do? Oh, that sounds really interesting, or can you tell me a bit more about that? And then we're also starting to turn into summarising, which is also a key part of active listening, which is just reflecting back what you've heard from the other person, but in their own words and it's all checking understanding. It's like, oh wait, is that was that in the um in the port? Like uh that kind of experience where you, I don't know, enjoyed the seaside, or um, or was it around the pool? I mean, this this is like quite a low stakes thing, and I do advise people when you're trying when you're trying active listening for the first time, do it in really low-stakes environments like the holidays, or asking people how their meeting was, or something simple before you start diving into the complex ones. Um, and then the last one is like it's it's reflect you you refer to it as reflecting back to the individual, like what you've seen in what they've said, and that's often like recognizing the emotions that you've seen come out in what they've said, or um any kind of observations around consistencies or inconsistencies is the and I don't mean in like a negative way, but it's uh it's kind of showing that I'm here for you and I see you. So it's just like uh I understand what you're saying, uh, and I just want to, you know, show that to you. So yeah, those are the like the three key things that you can actually build into your day-to-day conversations.

SPEAKER_02 12:36

That's so powerful, and and again, something that we can literally use tomorrow, you know, just as you say, just in a you know, an everyday kind of ordinary encounter, just to start with, really, really great. Um, I think you know, when people feel sort of seen as well, like seen by us in that kind of way, something sort of softens, doesn't it? So whilst you know, we might be sitting there listening, you know, to to this um episode thinking, but the problem's still there. Well, yes, however, that person hopefully now feels that little bit less alone in whatever situation is that they're in, right? Which is something that's really deeply human and you know really helps us to kind of demonstrate that we're absolutely being compassionate. Um I think rarely would we pick up the phone to a friend when we've had a terrible day because we wanted advice. Um, and normally it's sort of you know, they might not even be in our line of work, you know. Like imagine Angelique being a teacher calling a friend going, I've had a really terrible day today, you know, the my class ran off, and all these things happen. And then your non-teacher friend says to you, Well, have you thought about this? And it's um, so we're not calling to fix, we're calling to offload, aren't we? To share.

SPEAKER_00 13:53

Um a good way to actually like start that off. So when somebody does come to you with something, is to cut before you even go into anything, is to okay, what is it that you would like from me? So is it that you actually just want a vent and you want me to listen? And that's when you start to really deploy the active listening skills. Um, is it that actually you do want advice? And they're like, okay, still need to use the active listening skills to try and really understand what the situation is in order to give the advice, but you don't just jump straight to the advice. And then the other one is distraction. So actually, they don't want to talk about it at all. They want to, I don't know, go camel riding. I know it's a random example, but you know what I mean. Like, I want to do something fun and cool, and I just want to stop thinking about it. And those three kind of questions are really useful to ask so you know where to go with your level of support.

SPEAKER_02 14:49

Such good advice, Angelique. Thank you so much. Um, and I think you know, it's that difference now then, isn't it, between being a supporter and being, you know, a rescuer. Um I wonder about, you know, so one of the things that I often get asked, and I I don't know about you know yourself, Angelique, but you know, maybe when I'm you know doing training days or speaking at conferences and those sorts of things, people often ask me, like, how do you get comfortable with the silence thing? Like it's I think sometimes that's the barrier, isn't it? Like, have you got any like practical tips, like advice about like how we sort of get through that? Or yeah, does it get better in time?

SPEAKER_00 15:31

I it is really hard. It is really hard to get used to. I personally, um, because my experience comes from coaching and actually being educated in that realm, is I put my hat on, not a physical hat, obviously, but I put my coaching hat on in that right. I know even with my friends, I'm like, okay, well, actually, we're going on the in a direction of you need support. And then I will mentally prepare myself with right, you're going into coaching realm, silence is important. Don't start sharing your own experiences, help them talk it or think it through. So I just think about it in that way because then you know when you've got your coaching hat on, you're silence is important. Whereas if you don't, I mean, I'm very different as a friend than I am as a coach.

SPEAKER_02 16:20

So 100%. Yeah, I think we all wear multiple hats in that kind of way. Yeah, which one am I now? You know, yeah. It's like that Dr. Zeus kids thing, isn't it, with the whole line? Yeah. Oh wow. So I mean, before we sort of, you know, maybe go into sort of the the kind of close of today, due to our kind of like recent chats, Angelique, we were kind of thinking, weren't we, about you know, a potential way that maybe we could actually support um yeah, kind of people in in kind of doing this sort of stuff. And um, you've come up with a bit of a workshop idea, haven't you, that we're hoping to kind of launch uh later this year. So I don't know whether you want to just tell our listeners, you know, a little bit about that.

SPEAKER_00 17:05

Yeah, so um it's called building psychological safety, coaching skills for managers, because quite often people go into management and they haven't really been supported in the how to actually, as a manager, support your staff. And then you're told, oh, you need to create a set psychologically safe environment. What does that mean? How do you actually do that? It just becomes a buzzword, and you're told you need to do it, be like, I don't really know what that means. So then find you don't do it or you just make it up. Um, and coaching skills are a really good way to foster that environment by building trust um in trust in your colleagues, trust in you as a manager, feeling like being able to just actually be who you are and confidence to put your ideas forward. So I put this workshop together to really support managers to support their staff and creating that kind of trusting environment. And it really does help as well when you're trying to support people in a performance kind of or performance perspective or development perspective, because now you can actually explore with them exactly what they want to achieve, and not just like in five years' time, where do you see yourself? Because that's a big question. You know what I mean? But if you start talking to people about well, where you know, what is it that actually you're interested in, what excites you, and it it kind of helps that process of support. So that's that's and it mainly focuses on um the different components of active listening that I've mentioned before, which is very interactive. I'm all about interactive learning rather than just me talking.

SPEAKER_02 18:47

So PowerPoint slides repeatedly, 500 slides later, people are having awful math then.

SPEAKER_00 18:54

No, it's not me. Um yeah, yeah, but do also expect uh practice as I preach that there will be moments of silence where I expect you to really think about something and then share your kind of thoughts and observations about it.

SPEAKER_02 19:08

Well, we're all about that around here, absolutely. So I wonder then, Angelique, whether you know, if people were to maybe leave with a couple of things then from our conversation today, what would you hope that would be? Like any like golden takeaways?

unknown 19:22

Golden takeaways.

SPEAKER_02 19:24

No pressure, no pressure, it's all good.

SPEAKER_00 19:28

Um, first of all, um, I already mentioned it before, but dropping why from your vocabulary. Love that is really important. Um, it it does feel abnormal to begin with because now you've got to think about other words to start your questions with, like how or what, what is usually my default, to be honest, as a alternative. So you really do have to think before you ask questions. So I would say definitely drop why from your vocabulary. Um, when you find yourself like just wanting to jump straight into fixing, just pause, like actually, no, don't do that. Like, let's think about a non-why question to really explore with them. And um it sounds weird, but becoming a better listener means actually learning to do less. So interrupt less, advise less, assume less. And the when you would when you approach it like that, it allows you to be more inquisitive and have that level of curiosity that also helps the other person feel like they're listened to and gives them the opportunity to reflect on what they're saying because they want to help you understand them. So, yeah, those would be really my key takeaways.

SPEAKER_02 20:50

Thank you. I mean, really empowering, you know. I I think you know, for many of us, it was kind of like a sense of like a bit of a weight lifted in a way, in terms of, you know, we could definitely support, can't we, without the perfect words, without knowing all the answers, because guess what? You know, sometimes there won't be an actual answer, you know. Yeah, the answer is us, you know, and the way that we show up and respond. And I think you know, in a world that moves so quickly, like you know, always towards fixing and solving, that's our society, isn't it? You know, just really taking it back to the human and thinking about just that simple, compassionate presence. Yeah. Oh, that's lovely. Well, well put. Angelique, thank you so much. And it's been such a thoughtful, lovely conversation today. And thank you to all of our listeners as well. You know, we really hope, Angelique, don't we, that the episode really encourages everybody to just think a little bit differently, you know, about listening and and almost have that permission from us that actually less absolutely can be more. So thank you so much, Angelique. Great chatting today.

SPEAKER_00 21:55

Yeah, lovely to meet you and uh lovely to share some uh Insights into listening. Thank you for listening.

SPEAKER_02 22:10

Thank you so much for joining us. To learn more, visit the Trauma Informed Consultancy Services website. We'll see you next time.