Empathy, Grief, and Partnership: Shifting Home-School Dynamics from Conflict to Collaboration with Graham Chatterley

How can schools and professionals move past performative empathy to build genuine, supportive partnerships with the parents of children with SEND? Far too often, the intense pressures within the educational system pit schools and families against each other, creating defensiveness instead of a united team around the child. 

In this episode of Trauma Informed Conversations, we sit down with trauma-informed trainer, author, and educator Graham Chatterley to bridge this gap. Drawing from both his extensive professional career in special education and his deeply personal lived experience as a father to his son Daniel, who has complex medical and neurodivergent needs, Graham shines a vital light on the unseen realities of SEND parenting. 

Together, we unpack the psychological journey and emotional grief that parents navigate, the exhausting physical toll of around-the-clock caregiving, and the critical need for schools to offer genuine validation and emotional safety rather than lip service. Graham shares practical insights into rethinking the use of one-to-one support, prioritizing proactive sensory regulation over reactive crisis management, and why protecting legal safeguards like EHCPs is more vital than ever in today’s challenging landscape. 

What We Cover:

• Bridging the Home-School Divide: Overcoming the "us versus them" narrative to establish a foundation of emotional safety, mutual trust, and effective collaboration. 
• The Realities of Performative Empathy: Why parents see right through standard procedural responses and how listening to hear—rather than just to respond—can save relationships. 
• The "Grief" and Journey of SEND Parenting: Understanding the emotional phases families go through—denial, anger, bargaining, and eventually acceptance—and why schools must meet parents exactly where they are. 
• Preventative vs. Reactive Interventions: The resource-saving power of early, short interventions (like sensory circuits) compared to managing a child in full crisis. 
• Rethinking One-to-One Support: How to frame and utilise individual adult support to facilitate safety and independence without causing environmental manipulation. 
• The High Stakes of SEND Reform: A look at why parents are deeply anxious about shifts to the EHCP framework and the essential nature of legal protections for vulnerable young people. 

About the Guest: 

Graham Chatterley is a highly respected behaviour specialist, consultant, and author of Building Positive Behaviour and Changing Perceptions: Deciphering the Language of Behaviour. As the Director of Changing Perceptions Limited, an advisor with When the Adults Change, and a senior licensed tutor for Team Teach, he has dedicated his career to embedding empathy, relational strategies, and trauma-informed practices across all sectors of education. A former primary and secondary school teacher, Graham went on to lead specialist SEMH (Social, Emotional, and Mental Health) outreach provisions designed to support children at risk of exclusion. Beyond his professional expertise, Graham sits on "both sides of the fence" as a parent. His first hand lived experience caring for his son, Daniel who has complex medical and neurodivergent needs including autism, ADHD, sensory processing disorder, and epilepsy - deeply fuels his passionate advocacy for building authentic emotional safety and collaboration between schools and families. 

Links & Resources

Building Positive Behaviour

Changing Perceptions: Deciphering the Language of Behaviour

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Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:09

Hello and welcome to Trauma Informed Conversations, the podcast about trauma, healing, and hope.

SPEAKER_04 0:22

Hello to everyone, welcome back to another episode. Today I'm joined by the wonderful Graeme Chatterley. Hi Graham.

SPEAKER_00 0:30

Hi, hello.

SPEAKER_04 0:32

And today we're talking about a topic that was inspired by yourself, Graham. Not difficult, just exhausted. Understanding parents of children with sense.

SPEAKER_00 0:43

Yeah, it was um I've had a bit of an experience over the last year or so. Um, and I just thought it was time to sort of share that experience a bit more. Um so yeah, that was that was the thinking behind it.

SPEAKER_04 0:59

Absolutely, Graeme. So before we begin properly, I just want to acknowledge something really important. We know, you know, from our training capacity, and Graeme, we'll get you to kind of introduce yourself a little bit more in a moment to our listeners, but we know schools are under pressure, teachers are under pressure, Senko support staff, everybody. Um, so today's conversation isn't about blame, you know, there's no us and them kind of narrative. It's really just, you know, ourselves as professionals and obviously some of your own lived experiences, Graeme, as well, just kind of really coming together and kind of thinking about, you know, where things are up to um for um parents of a child or young person with send. So, Graeme, I had the pleasure of meeting you in first in person finally back in October at the TICS conference.

SPEAKER_00 1:52

Yes, yeah, it was a great day, wasn't it?

SPEAKER_04 1:55

Yeah, really, really great day. And um, yeah, just for our listeners who may not have the privilege of of kind of knowing you like I do, what is it that you do day to day?

SPEAKER_00 2:04

So I uh I do uh whatever people pay me for. Um so I I I I was a primary teacher, I was I then taught secondary PE for a little bit, I then sort of stumbled into what was EBD or naughty boys as they were known at the time. Um and then in that process I was delivering a lot of of training for for my school and my own staff, which sort of developed into sort of outreach. But I was I took a pastoral leadership role and I was needing to understand my young people, and and it was a fairly simple premise when I first started an EBD. As long as your relationships were firm, I sorry relationships were good and your boundaries were firm. That was all you really needed, but there's a lot more to it than that, and the more I looked into it, the the harder it got. I got I did some training with uh the fabulous um Lisa Wisher at Altringham University, and she really did send me down a rabbit hole. Um I've never I've never managed to get to get out of it. So I when I left that just before COVID, which was fabulous timing, um yeah, I was doing all sorts of different training, most mostly sort of around team teach and things like that that I was doing. Um, but I've always been very much as team teachers, the preventative side of things rather than the the focus on the physical side of things, like some people sometimes wonder about that kind of training. Uh, and then that led to more trauma-informed stuff, more bespoke training for schools. Um I I ended up delivering trauma-informed practice, a course written by the fabulous Lisa Cherry. Um, because uh she'd been asked to do it in a special needs school, yeah. Um but she wasn't sure she could answer the questions that she was going to get asked in the settings. So for authenticity, she asked me to do it, and I I just said yes, and it was a little bit uh overwhelming content, but we did it and it worked really well. And then when I'm in those kinds of settings, I quite often get there's a section on it where we start talking about parents and being the parent of uh a young person with very, very complex needs. I've sat both sides of the of the fence, and what I tend to find in those settings is is naturally the adults have incredible amounts of empathy for the children, yes, um, but they don't have the same levels of understanding and empathy for the parents, and again, that there's good reasons for that, yes. Um, so what I'm trying to do now is just try and bridge that gap a little bit and give those schools, mainstream and special schools, just a little bit more understanding of what that experience is like for those parents and why they might be a little bit combative, um, a little bit defensive maybe, but also um some of the the the messages that we get from them might be misinterpreted and and things like that. So yeah, it's it's trying to trying to bridge that gap that's that's been it's been coming on for a number of years now, where schools and home have been pitted against each other.

SPEAKER_01 5:39

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 5:39

And now we're in a position where we're constantly hearing about how too many children are diagnosed and all these different things. And it just doesn't help anybody. So yeah, that's where we're at.

SPEAKER_04 5:51

Absolutely. Well, Graham, thank you so much for your honesty. And you know, again, from kind of coming at this really from you know, sort of both perspectives, really. Thank you. I'm just kind of curious about you know, where does that perception come from? Because, you know, I think if we were to kind of put our professional hats on for a moment there, we absolutely, without a shadow of a doubt, will have been in staff rooms, Graham, with colleagues who are potentially, and it's understandable as you've said, maybe referring to a parent as oh, difficult parent, oh, it's a difficult, difficult situation. You know, where where does that perception kind of come from? And is that always fair?

SPEAKER_00 6:33

No, I think I think we're in a a situation where we're under so much pressure, yes, and you know, everybody's being pitted against each other all the time. Like I go into to all sorts of meetings, um, obviously professionally, but when I've been that that parent in that meeting, and whereas 10 years ago it was a team around a child that were looking for solutions and ways to work together, yeah, we now seem to be in a position where everybody's more worried about covering themselves and who's paying for what, and how can we avoid having to invent and and and so all those frustrations tend to boil over, and the parents are more frustrated because they feel like not everybody's doing everything that they can be doing, and quite often they will be right in that situation. I think it's very easy for parents to be fobbed off by multiple different professionals and see school as the stay. Um, I think frustrations from a school perspective is sometimes those parents are asking for things that we can't provide because they see their child and their child is the center of the universe as they should be. And so it's then in it's very, very difficult then to see that actually the support that we've got, we've got to balance it against the other children and all of those, those different things. But the biggest thing I'm seeing of late is parents are getting a lot of criticism for using things like chat GPT, for WhatsApp groups, for you know, things like that. But as I will say in my my training and things like that, is we all need validation.

SPEAKER_01 8:36

Of course.

SPEAKER_00 8:37

And if we feel like we're not getting validation from the school that we're working with, then we will go and seek that validation elsewhere. And actually, a lot of those parents are very, very vulnerable for people who have agendas or have an axe to grind, cool, and that can then spiral into what becomes rather than what should be a supportive group, becomes a moan, moaning, complaining group, and we're not finding any solutions. So it does absolutely go both ways, but we've all got to be reflective and try to try to figure out how to work together. But one of the things that I often found when I was in the special settings and things like that, you know, for an example, is especially with the residential care settings, and the the the school and the teachers would be really excited about the fact that they were having success with the young person, and so they would phone up home to rave about the child and tell them how well they were doing, and then they'd be met with a very apathetic or even sort of disappointed parent. Yes, and they couldn't get their head round why that was. But if if the school have been successful, yeah, then that means that I've failed as a parent. And I I I am uh enough experience now in a point of acceptance where you know if if somebody else is being successful, then I'm pleased about it. But there's just that tinge of all right, they're better than me. And and you can't help that, that's just natural human responses. But I think when I have those conversations with those settings about those par and that parental experience, yeah, you you see the understanding and and then you do get the empathy and things come in, and and that's why I think it's it's it's really important that we do that.

SPEAKER_04 10:43

It really is, isn't it? And I think like thinking about the onset Graham of you know, well, we're doing all this in school, almost what are you doing at home, or you know, why why are you not seeing that at home? You know, it's it's that old chestnut of, oh, that's not something that we've seen at school, or you know, and again, you know, I think I'm picking up on you know what you were saying about, you know, maybe using AI, maybe turning to some of the parent groups, because where else are you supposed to go when you know you're kind of being met with overstretched professionals who perhaps don't have you know necessarily you know that sort of empathy for the parent or carer point of view?

SPEAKER_00 11:23

I mean, the hardest thing for me when I'm in those meetings, uh and and again, you know, you'll have talked about Brene Brown on on the previous podcast and things like that.

SPEAKER_02 11:33

Yeah, well that's it.

SPEAKER_00 11:34

And and she talks about you know, sympathy driving disconnection, empathy building connections and stuff. But what I sometimes experience in meetings is a performative empathy. But you know, people are listening, but they're not listening to hear, they're listening to respond, and that that drops a hand grenade on on connection um and will really really strain the relationship that we've got. So we have got to absolutely listen to each other. Now, whether we can again agree or whether we can do what's been asked of us, that's a separate matter altogether, but it's that validation and that feeling like you've been listened to that's so important in those in those moments about that relationship.

SPEAKER_04 12:23

Yeah, it really is. And and so I was gonna ask you what what do parents need, you know, or what do parents need in those situations? So I'm already picking up on genuine empathy, genuine validation. What else, you know, if we could kind of get a message to schools or to professionals, you know, how would we box that up as uh here's what we need?

SPEAKER_00 12:45

I think I think I think it I think it's just that's our starting point, isn't it? And then and then you're working together then. And once you're working together, that's when you can formulate a plan. So it you know, it's just it's no different to to working with the children. Once you've got a foundation of emotional safety and trust, yeah, then then then you can start to bring in work on self-regulation and belonging and all of those other things. Without that foundation of emotional safety and trust, we've got nothing. So again, you've got that with with with uh with the parents and things. And and again, I think the other issue that we have is we're asking the parents of children who are finding life very difficult. Yes, and you know, you you mentioned before, you know, that they're fine for us, and then then but they might be holding that in all day and then going and letting it out at home. Absolutely. Might be vice versa and stuff in that situation, but also you know, in terms of the expectations, they might be unreasonable. We might be asking for one-to-one where one-to-one's not the right thing. We might be asking, um we we might be we might have a one-to-one, but it's not being used in the way that's most beneficial to the child, and all those conversations that we have to we have to have together, we can start having those proper conversations once we've got a foundation of safety and trust. And that for me is is is how we we get there. And and one of the things I've been I've been doing, which was a really weird thing that that came about of late, is yeah, supporting head teachers to have conversations with parents who would fall under that challenging, hard to reach, whatever label you want to put on onto them, yeah. And just finding that middle ground so that we can then move forwards. And you know, it's it's it's been it's been good. It's yeah, and again, it's things I never saw myself doing, but exactly you once you've got the relationship with both parties, you can kind of mediate that position. And I'm not sure anybody is looking to mediate. I think I think it's very easy to go, oh, that parent's been unreasonable, let's just shut down communication.

SPEAKER_04 14:58

Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 15:00

And then from that position, you've you've got you've got nowhere to go from there. Yeah, um, and and don't get me wrong, I know some of those parents. I've you know, I've worked in SEMH. Yes, I've had those parents that have come flying up the drive, really agitated, and and and attack is the best form of defense and all that kind of stuff. Of course, but again, we're asking adults who we don't really know their experiences and their traumas and their life experience and their brain developments and all of those different things, and we're asking them to remain calm when they perceive that somebody's wronged their child. How often are we rational when it's our own children? You know, and so we just need to focus on that co-regulation first, of course, and then go from there, and you know, just allowing that that parent a bit of time, make them a cup of tea, give them a little bit of time to come down before we start the conversations. It's such a small thing, but it's such an important thing to do because nothing can be solved when everybody's angry.

SPEAKER_04 16:12

Oh, definitely not, and you know, that co-regulation and meeting well, it's like the children, isn't it? We said meet them where they're at, don't we? Meet that parent where they're at. One thing that I've noticed, Graeme, is quite often uniprofessionals are almost quite surprised when you know, maybe a parent starts to kind of share maybe some of those hidden responsibilities, some of the hidden pressures, hidden worries that sometimes are quite unique. I could see just for the benefit of the listeners, Graham's smiling at what I've just asked. Oh dear, is that a good or bad thing, Graeme? But I'm just thinking about there's a lot of hidden, aren't there?

SPEAKER_00 16:47

When it comes to yeah, and and again, it it's it's very much a spectrum of depending on the young person's needs and things like that. You know, I've my my child just for for information, you know, Daniel autism, ADHD, global delay, sensory process disorder, epilepsy, hypermobility, postural scoliosis, gastronomy fed, epilepsy. We've got a lot going on. Um, and we've gone on a on a journey. Um, he has so many behaviors that trigger other behaviors, and we're trying to figure it out because he's non-verbal and all those different things. But you know, we have issues with pain, pain causes seizures, seizures cause more pain, causes aggressive behaviors, all of those things. So we're constantly working on on those. Um but we are exhausted, absolutely exhausted. Um you know, he he was he he put his mum into hospital and went into care about two years ago now.

SPEAKER_02 17:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:52

Um it was kind of an emergency section 20, and he went into the care system. Um and it it wasn't what we were promised, it wasn't um things that were were were agreed were not provided, he wasn't kept safe. Um and he had a lot of head injuries from head butting through walls because he wasn't being supervised, and then we he stopped eating and he went from 55 kilos down to 35 kilos. He was a week from going blind, um, heart could have given out at any moment, malnutrition. So we'd had him back, but we couldn't get him eating again. Um, and so we ended up with the emergency surgery on the gastronomy, and he's handled it incredibly. And it's it's helped matters in the fact that we can now get medication into him, but we can also get nutrients into him, feed into him. And he's gone way beyond now, he's now 75 kilos, and he's a unit now. Um, but we've had him back home on the section 20. We were promised certain things that we didn't get in terms of care packages. We haven't had any respite for 14 months. Um, so we are absolutely chattered. My my wife got keeps getting told off by her Apple Watch because she's averaging an hour a night's sleep for the last 14 months. So that's not very healthy and stuff that you've got. So you're trying to manage that side of things, and and again, common things with children with any additional needs and things like that is they don't sleep well. Um, and again, we could go into all the details of nervous systems and not producing melatonin and all that kind of stuff. Yeah, but the reality is you you you're shattered. Um, but we've got to a point where we are accepting of where we are and and how we are. Now it's took time to get to that point of acceptance, and this is a big part of of the training that I'm doing at the moment. Yes, is you know, is a section on on my real life experiences. Now, if you are the parent of a send child, then it's it it and it sometimes upsets people when we use the word grief. And yes, I don't know if grief is the right word, but I don't have a better one.

SPEAKER_01 20:18

Of course.

SPEAKER_00 20:19

Um, because it's not like my child has died, but things I had planned have disappeared, and so you know, I was gonna take him to football and university and and all those, and that's that's like a rug that's been um pulled away. So with that in mind, you go through those processes, and the first one that you will go through is all the denial, and we were in denial for a short period, but we have quite a lot of knowledge, so we didn't spend ages in denial. But parents, grandparents, they will be in denial, they'll keep telling you it's a phase, probably because they're trying to make you feel better. Yeah, you have friends who will say it's a phase because they're trying to make you feel better, but it doesn't make you feel better, it's it's it's it and you get a bit fed up of course of the hearing, and you've got got less as much tolerance and things, so you end up then sort of getting isolated, and you stop getting invited out because you can't go, and it's a military operation to take your child anywhere, so you tend to just isolate yourself, and and again, we see that an awful lot with with with a lot of our send parents, and then you've got all the anger that comes with it, yes. And you know, from from my experience, you've you've isolated, and then you've got all the anger and the and the frustration that comes with it, made worse by our scenario where we were um we we we knew something was wrong, and he was only six months old at the time, and we knew something was wrong, and we took him to the doctors, and they said we we were being fussy and we were all right and and send him away and then we went back a few days later and they sent us away again and then because you you you you think you can trust the doctors I I you know and I was stressed out and I was tired and I was like I'm just gonna go on football and I'm gonna go and have a game of football and then I'm gonna uh clear my head and stuff but whilst I was at football he stopped breathing oh and got rushed to hospital um and then you'd got the anger at the professionals for l letting you down and stuff but there was anger towards me that I wasn't there which is again there's a justification to that there's an anger I've got myself because I wasn't there yes but that really drove a wedge into our relationship and like 85% of marriages of children with special needs we we split up and and stuff we we've we've kind of got a got it back to a degree we don't live together and stuff but we're we're constantly trying to work it but there's all of that going on and that anger has nowhere to go so it has to go at your partner because it can't go on your child and all of your patience all of your energy is going there. So there's there's that element that's very very difficult. Yes and then you get to you know the the ridiculous bargaining you do that you know you know I I'm not religious at all but I promise God all sorts if you sort it out and maybe give some child and all that kind of stuff which again is completely irrational but we but we do do it then you've got your overwhelm of it all and then you get to a point where you find your acceptance and if I'm looking at that and how long did that take you know we're um I my experience it probably took us five or six years to get to that to that point. And what I keep saying to schools is I've got huge amounts of knowledge and understanding of special needs and trauma from my my experiences previously for your parents it's going to probably take longer. Oh and they might be in the denial phase they might be in the anger phase and so if they're in those phases they're not going to be behaving rationally not at all yeah and so we've got to we've got to recognize where we are and then help them to come through to that point of acceptance before we're going to be successful. So it's very difficult and you know it's not in the training is it or anything like that. No it's not no you know we we we do a lot of I mean we we haven't got enough trauma informed stuff going on anyway but it's all directed at the children nobody's taking into account the trauma experiences of of the parents and then you know generational and all that kind of stuff as well of course yeah I mean do you think in a way Graham I was just kind of reflecting about you know again you know you're fortunate in the sense of you had so much knowledge already didn't you but I'm just thinking about you know do you feel like parents of a child or young person with send almost end up becoming like accidental professionals in a way because there's got to be so much learning and research involved and self-education and you're kind of carrying all of that whilst also trying to manage emotionally and yeah I think I think absolutely and and then I think you know I I I just my my wife is an example and stuff you know she she was she was a she was a TA and stuff but you know and and again she does that on just a TA thing which drives me nuts because don't get me started on that they they keep the world going and stuff but but you know she has done thousands and thousands and thousands of hours you know and I I'm quite confident that she could be an OT if she wanted to be um but the you know the imposter syndrome is there I do I do get her into schools doing sort of sensory profiles and things now now and again because oh wow um you know if you can't wait to have her yeah yeah if you can't wait if you haven't got two years to wait for an OT then you know it's it's support for the schools and things but you yeah I think I think and and again I think you um your your your tolerance for some of the bull the bs that comes your way yes it starts to to seriously weigh in um but also you you you recognize when you've been fobbed off and I think you're you're very astute as to when you're getting lip service and again that will that will it doesn't when it doesn't feel genuine that again is is a part of the issue and stuff and I think the more that our parents know and again you know not all medical professionals and things like that but they they can you're just the parent and they can be quite patronizing sometimes um and that again can can make you quite defensive in that situation and and again I'd be lying if I said that wasn't something that could come through through from educators as well. Yes in those situations.

SPEAKER_04 27:14

It's understandable and again you know I haven't been in your position you know as a parent Graham but I anticipate that that must add to that kind of feeling of grief really in terms of you know it's not only you know kind of thinking about it from the point of view of you having time to process you having time to kind of spend that quality time with your child you know you're a project manager you're coordinating professionals you're you know almost having to kind of educate school educate doctors at the same point as kind of navigating your own journey and I'm assuming as well that that's kind of where the exhaustion comes in isn't it is almost that feeling of is anybody here like are you listening it's it's a massive part of it I think I think the bigger it source of the exhaustion is the the lack of light at the end of the tunnel especially with the current system.

SPEAKER_00 28:10

Yes you know it's it's like you keep you just keep going and you kind of exist in in that space and you're doing your best and stuff but every day and you just want to be able to look forward and think okay things are going to settle down here and calm down a little bit and I and I can I can take a breath you know like if I if somebody could give me you know in September we're gonna have some overnight respite that would give me I could work towards September as it as it is I'm just gonna have to keep going and keep going and keep going and you know that that's the the really tiring bit not feeling like it's changing or getting better. Now again there is lots and lots of joy and when you get to that point of acceptance you can you find that that that joy absolutely and when we look at Daniel you know I look at photos of him when he came out of care and he was skinning bone and I look at him now with the plane in the water with a smile on his face and colour in his cheeks it's driving isn't it absolutely yeah but but again but then you just take a breath and then you go God I'm so tired and and it and it's kind of that that stuff and and again we're only just you're hanging on because it's only going to take something to go wrong at school or somebody to cut some funding or something like that especially in the current climate where it's a very tense market around you know special needs and and you know what they're doing with EHCPs and legal protections and then you've got the reform councils coming in who are attacking special needs. So it's yeah it's a it's a a just an even more overwhelming situation that we currently find ourselves in and everybody's just a little bit heightened in the SEN world um and rightly rightly so yeah because you haven't got that buffer you haven't got sort of anything anything to fall back on you're just you're there and you're close to the precipice all the time. Yes yeah 100% and I'm thinking also you know kind of from the point of view of schools as well the challenge is as you've just said you know services are overstretched things are getting you know kind of cut left right and centre aren't they really and that and that's the other thing as well is yeah go on no I was gonna say you you've got a lot of schools and you and you do speak to them and actually it is genuine the empathy is genuine and the the the things they want to do to support your child are absolutely genuine oh yeah they don't have the resources to do it resource yeah and so and so that that should be a case of of school and home together fighting against somebody else yes that's but again it doesn't often work that way no no it doesn't and and I was just thinking as well about you know due to the lack of services and other places that parents can go I mean I suppose we can also have empathy for school and that they're picking up conversations as well aren't they that might be for a social worker could be for a doctor might be for an OT you know and actually but school is kind of always there. It's a front door that you can metaphorically walk through when you need to and and and you know that Daniel's school have kept us going you know they've been absolutely incredible they've been absolutely incredible um and and we we we are working together to to to get funding and all those different things and you know that's that's a position that's many years of working together to get there and things. And that's what that's what can be achieved if we if we are working together and stuff and and and that's really important. But it's yeah it's a really difficult landscape at the moment. But I also think we've got to it it's it's very it is very easy to finger point um yes and you know I am also you know spending a lot of time in early years in schools. Okay that's nice we have got a huge number of children being referred and some of those young people who are being referred for things like ADHD and autism yes I don't think have ADH and autism I think they have child development gaps. Absolutely and and it's again a deep frustration of me mine is is looking at the government response and all those different things and everybody's talking about you know social media for under 60 but nobody's talking about the impact of technology the impact of austerity the impact of COVID on young children and what that's doing in terms of their frontal cortex development their executive functioning their emotional regulation and it's easy to go you just let your child sit in front of a piece of technology you need to just take it off them but the people that are saying that have have never parented children exactly in the generation of technology and it's so easy to just finger point and just go oh if it if it if it was me I'd just take it off them that it's not as simple as that's not um and so we do need to just again just communicate better around this and come up with a a public health plan. You know if you're only getting one visit from a health visitor then they're not going to be teaching you about nutrition and about understanding the the impact of technology in the brain and all you know these things need to come at source and and and again we've got more parents who are separated from families so you know we're more dispersed now less adults less village to raise a child all of those factors are just being completely sort of glossed over and you know we need to support and we and and if we had home start and sure start what they would now be doing is a big focus on the impact of of technology for small children and we would be letting parents know just how important it is to interact with their child and exactly them up to to play with them to to to to validate their emotions all these different things interaction but you only know what you know and of course and you've got those send parents who are doing thousands and thousands and thousands of hours of reading and stuff to learn it. But but if you if you don't do that then you you miss out on loads of information that could be shared by somebody like a health visitor or you know and again it'd be nice for me I'd like to see these WhatsApp groups and things like that's what they're doing. Yes. Rather than just helping everybody to fight each other actually let's make it about sharing information and and and things like that.

SPEAKER_04 35:04

Yeah true and and one thing I was just curious about so you were very complimentary you know about Daniel's school I mean are there any like hints tips tricks there things that have made a massive difference to you as a parent that maybe you'd like to see other schools doing?

SPEAKER_00 35:20

I again I just they they they listen they listen and I mean the fact that we you know as as they always did the the they absolutely adore Daniel and that's clear as as day you know and and that's obviously it the the ultimate starting point you know um and I'm not saying that there are there are schools that that that don't but sometimes because of the rigidity of the systems that we're in it causes confli that the system causes the conflict and you know we're we're we're very traditional in the systems and stuff that are going to cause conflict they're going to cause anxiety for the children and then the children come home and then the parents see the anxiety and and then they're getting hit with well you know but they need to sit still and they need to share and they need to turn take but it's not a case of we're going to teach them to do those things they just need to do them and we've got to have that okay so they can't do that now we need we're gonna do this from a school side yes we need but can you do this from a home side so that we can work together to help give the young person the skills to to do it. And it's that working with I often use a social discipline window model um for for for lots of different aspects but I also do it from the the parent perspective and and again I think parents are very guilty of that four box especially send parents yeah because you can see your young person struggling and they're overwhelmed and all those different things. So our go-to is to want to protect them and want to insulate them from stress and all those different things but the school perspective is but I need them to have these high expectations and things and to go from one to the other is very difficult to do. So I I often talk about a ladder up to the with box and it's about providing that support but we've got to push that young person out of their comfort zone and then be there to catch them when they fall you know we've got to place demands upon them socially and things like that because they're gonna you know all children need belonging and and things and and and it's too easy just to take them away from the thing that's causing them stress. Yeah take the demands away take the social situations away that's not going to give us a happy young person that's just gonna keep them in that that same place and the world's going to move on without them and they fall further be further behind so it's it's you know it's it's as much about getting the parents to understand that as well but again if you can have those conversations from a position of the best interest of the child that makes a huge difference you know if Daniel's school phone me up and say you know Daniel's been really disruptive in class can I take him out into the hall bit unsure about whether I want to agree to that. If they say to me Daniel's really overwhelmed I'd like to go and do a sensory circuit with him for five minutes and then bring him back can I do that absolutely because 100% it's it's it's framed differently and it's in Daniel's best interest. And I think one of the biggest ones that I have to have lots of conversations about is the use of a one-to-one do a lot of work with children who would be described as demand avoidant not necessarily PDA but they you know demand avoidance is about can can feel in control and feeling safe and a lot of these young people are trying to manipulate the adults around them and their environment not because they're badly behaved but because that makes them feel safe and in control. Yes and what do we do with that young person who's trying to control all the adults around and we give them their own personal adult and then they feel like they've got their own person to to to do their that you know and and actually we need that person we need that one to one but they don't need to be sat next to them 24 hours a day. They're giving independence they're stepping in if there's a problem and how we utilize that one to one is really important in those situations. I mean Daniel's two to one in a lot of circumstances but he's usually he's usually on his own doing independent things or or with the one person. But if he if he gets aggressive or something like that then that person is there to come in and and support and I and again I think how we frame that conversation with parents in their best interests is really important. Where lot of the time it might be well we can't afford that or we can't do that or um or or whatever let's let's look at actually the child's best interest first and we'll look from there.

SPEAKER_04 40:10

Absolutely and some things are free aren't they good communication follow-up consistency being careful with language use Graham as well I mean you know what you were describing there about you know the sensory circuit versus you know can we remove Daniel into the corridor I mean you know one of them is really supporting with you know with his regulation the other one you know you could kind of be coping with a fallout of that home for I can imagine days or weeks to come I think the the other thing as well is you know if you look at something like like that you know we have got finite resources absolutely and if if we had more then there's lots of different things that we could be doing but I quite often hear from schools that you know we we can't do this or we can't do that or we haven't got the people to do that.

SPEAKER_00 40:59

You know I talk about early intervention things like sensory circuits and stuff. But then when that child goes into crisis all of a sudden there's two or three adults for an hour to put the pieces back together.

SPEAKER_05 41:13

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 41:13

So you know we could do you know 10 of those five minute interventions and lose less less impactful on on resource and things so again you know we we do talk about money and resources and things and that's absolutely fair enough but we do sometimes make it difficult for ourselves by missing those early opportunities to to put those interventions in place and then every time that child fails that's just gonna damage self-esteem and lead to shame and all that which again is a really difficult place to come back from so there's there's there's lots of elements to it um and I think we've got to work out with those resources putting in preventative things rather than reactive things and and again you know if we could get the government to do this that would be absolutely lovely but they want to be reactive as well and it's um so so then it filters down and everybody's got to be reactive and stuff it's hard work.

SPEAKER_04 42:16

100% and you know you mentioned a little bit earlier on about dare I say it the centre form I mean what are your thoughts around that you know how might that also kind of affect you know our parents like yourself um yeah what do we what do we feel about that one?

SPEAKER_00 42:34

Well it it it does worry me because the the EHCP is the the the one legal protection that that that we've got so you know uh and it's a far far from perfect system and some of those EHCPs you know they they vary in quality dramatically but they do they are a legal document that have to be followed and I think taking that away it's all very good in theory if everybody's got the best intentions if everybody's been genuinely got the best intention to support their young then then just any recommendations will be followed. Yes but if you've got an intention to save money or to engineer a young person out or something like that then with no legal protections there I can understand why a lot of our uh a lot of the parents are very very concerned about that moving forwards. Yeah um we've got far too many children who are out of education as it is and it's it's it's for me the problem that the big problem that we've got around that is that we've not got the right children in the right places because we're not providing the right support in the right places. So if we focused on early years and embedding those those develop filling those development Mental gaps and you know, working on executive functioning and working on um emotional control and things like you know. Again, we always talk about the Finland model and things like that, but that's yeah, that's what is needed for our young people. Yes, it is, and then by seven, we've we've we've plugged those holes. We've not got children who can't sit still, can't share, can't turn tape. Yeah, now the children that are going to be getting referred are the ones that genuinely can't sit still, yes, share or tell because of probably something like ADHD or autism, and then we we get rid of that bottleneck and we can get the right children providing with the right support. We've also got children with trauma filling up uh um specialist provisions. That's right, absolutely, yes, you know, those children with the right support at the right time could manage in mainstream, I believe. They can they can look at my my cohort and I'm looking at them going, if you've had the right support at the right time, you wouldn't be here. And that's exactly you know that that that's a huge number of children. So then the special school placements can go to the children with communication difficulties and things like that. So, you know, that that system, it's just deeply frustrating to watch and look at all the children who have been allowed to be further harmed by the school experience. Absolutely, and again, it's very easy to point fingers at schools for, but it's not necessarily the school's fault, they're doing what they're being pressured to do by Ofsted. You know, we have all this every second counts nonsense that we've got. Oh my goodness, no, yes, no evidential backing whatsoever and stuff, but that is a stick being used to beat schools with, and you know, again, if you've not got the resources and things, then you can't provide what the child needs, and then you end up uh they're out of school, and then there's no placement for him, and it's it's all a big mess in that respect. So, yeah, but but again, you know, we we as you know parents and profess can only control what we can control, and exactly it's you know, and until I can have the job of uh in the DFE, then then we're we're not gonna get anywhere.

SPEAKER_04 46:20

Um can you apply for that soon, Graham? Because someone has to do something.

SPEAKER_00 46:24

There we go. Um no, but it it is, but it is it's a bit like, and again, the more you know, the more you understand. Yes, it's a bit like watching a car crash about to happen.

SPEAKER_04 46:35

Oh, exactly. And we all could have done something about it.

SPEAKER_00 46:39

And it's you know, and and I I I used to I didn't really used to get the ignorance is bliss phrase years ago, but boy do I get it now.

SPEAKER_01 46:49

Makes sense now.

SPEAKER_00 46:50

I I I I wish I was unaware of some of the things that I'm aware of now because it really does, it really does drive you mad.

SPEAKER_04 46:56

You and me both, yeah, absolutely. And um, I'm just kind of thinking about you know, if every teacher, SENDCO, school leader, any professional listening today just remembered one thing from our conversation, what would you want that to be?

SPEAKER_00 47:13

Oh now, that's a question.

SPEAKER_04 47:15

I know at 5 30 on a Friday, listeners. You know, we're we're in it.

SPEAKER_00 47:20

I do think that the the most important thing is the validation and and and the the jet genuine empathy and listening. I think I think like I say, the the the the the B A someter for for for special needs parents it's it's we see through it and you know if you're not genuine we'll know and and that that will automatically cause that disconnection straight away. Um so if we we need that uh that connection and that trust if we're gonna achieve anything. So I do think that is the most important thing for me.

SPEAKER_04 47:59

Yeah, and I think for me, Graham, you reminded me of just how pivotal it is that we all show up every day as our authentic selves, you know, and that we, you know, really just kind of hold in mind as well, you know, kind of those invisibles and you know what people might be carrying that maybe we we have no idea about.

SPEAKER_00 48:21

I mean I think I think we we have that temptation as educators to want to fix things, don't we?

SPEAKER_01 48:28

We do, yeah, because it brought us to the job.

SPEAKER_00 48:30

It's a natural natural thing, it is, but we we can't we can't fix it. So we need to stop trying to fix it. We just need to um we need to to to make that person feel heard.

SPEAKER_04 48:44

Absolutely. So we're on the journey together rather than yeah, kind of playing fixer, and you know, as I always say, Graham, you know, and I I've heard you say this as well in various spaces, you know, that requires a lot of vulnerability from ourselves as the professional, doesn't it, to kind of sit with that and you know, to kind of walk alongside those that are in pain for whatever reason and you know know that we've done our bit, but unfortunately, you know, we're all only part of the jigsaw, aren't we?

SPEAKER_00 49:13

You know, there's we're also we're in a we're in a culture where vulnerability is seen as weakness as well, aren't we? It is so so that is again even more pressure. You know, you you can never you can never admit you're wrong, you can never apologise for anything, you've got to be in control of your emotions all the time.

SPEAKER_04 49:30

Absolutely, you've got to be perfect, whatever that is.

SPEAKER_00 49:33

It's just totally unrealistic. And you know, there's no such thing as perfect parenting, there's no such thing as perfect um teaching. You know, we we we're just doing the best that we can, uh, but we're doing the best that we can together rather than against each other, and that's the key.

SPEAKER_04 49:51

Well, Graeme, can I just say thank you on behalf of not only myself and everyone at TICS, but just on behalf of all of our listeners? I think you've been so generous, not only with your time given everything that you've got going on. Um, and that's just working in education. That's before we even think about, you know, kind of things at home, right? And I'm just really grateful. I think we've all learned so much from this experience. So thank you so much.

SPEAKER_00 50:17

Thank you.

SPEAKER_03 50:27

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