Trauma Informed Conversations
Hosted by the team behind Trauma Informed Consultancy Services, led by Jessica Parker, Director at TICS. This podcast explores how trauma-informed principles can transform the way we live, work, lead, and support others. Each episode dives into real-world conversations with experts, educators, and practitioners who are driving positive change through compassion, understanding, and awareness.
Whether you’re a leader, educator, clinician, or simply someone who wants to build safer and more supportive environments, Trauma Informed Conversations offers practical insights, reflective dialogue, and inspiring stories to help you embed trauma-informed approaches in every aspect of life and work.
Join us as we create space for empathy, learning, and meaningful connection — one conversation at a time.
Trauma Informed Conversations
Nature, Belonging, and Regulation with Cat Jolleys
Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.
In this episode of Trauma Informed Conversations, host Jessica Parker is joined by TICS Associate Cat Jolleys. Drawing on her 24-year background as a primary school deputy head and SENCo, as well as her current work as a forest school leader and nature practitioner, Cat explores the deep connection between the natural environment and nervous system regulation.
Starting with John Muir’s famous quote "We are now in the mountains and they are in us" - Jess and Cat discuss how stepping outside shifts us from "what is wrong with you" to an environment of low demand, safety, and sensory restoration. From neuroplasticity and tree climbing to mindfulness around a campfire, this conversation highlights how nature serves as a powerful co-regulator for care-experienced young people, neurodivergent children, and exhausted adults alike.
Key Takeaways
- The Neurobiology of Outdoors: How natural environments reduce sensory and cognitive overload, allowing children - especially those with additional needs - to regulate faster and stay regulated for longer.
- Safety in the Woods: Understanding how ancestral instincts influence our need for safety, such as leaning against a tree to guard our backs or creating "dens" to feel cocooned.
- Attention Restoration Theory: Why just 15 to 20 minutes of scanning nature, feeling sunlight, or hearing bird song can clear cognitive capacity and restore an overwhelmed nervous system.
- Healing for Parents and Carers: The role of "Nature Well" sessions in offering trauma-informed space for parents of SEND children - giving them permission to rest, be restored, and leave home pressures behind.
- Practical Inclusivity: How urban schools, social workers, and office workers without direct access to forests can bring nature into daily practice through houseplants, sunlight, and small noticing walks.
Guest
Cat Jolleys is a TICS Associate, qualified Forest School Leader, and Nature Health and Wellbeing Practitioner based in Greater Manchester. Following a nearly 24-year career in primary education as a Deputy Headteacher and SENCo, Cat pivoted her work toward nature-based wellbeing. She specialises in facilitating child-led outdoor learning, supporting care-experienced and neurodivergent young people, and delivering nature wellbeing sessions that foster relaxation, restoration, and revitalisation.
Subscribe to Trauma Informed Conversations for more honest discussions about trauma, recovery, and building systems rooted in care and humanity.
Hello and welcome to Trauma Informed Conversations, the podcast about trauma, healing, and hope.
SPEAKER_01Well, hello everyone, and welcome back to another episode of Trauma Informed Conversations. I've had a little bit more time recently to do some reflecting, and I was thinking about a really interesting quote by John Moyer. We are now in the mountains, and they're in us. And I think as I get older, and the more people I meet through my work ensure my mental health and well-being, the more I find myself returning to that idea. So I was thinking about who I can talk about nature and belonging and connection with. And of course, immediately I thought of wonderful Tix Associate Kat Jollies. Welcome, Kat. Thank you for having me. You are very welcome. So, Kat, yeah, I wonder whether you might want to just kind of tell our listeners a little bit about yourself and what it is that you do.
SPEAKER_02With pleasure. So um I am currently working as a forest school leader, and I have trained quite recently, in addition to that training, um, as a NHL Health and Nature Practitioner, which is a kind of pivot in my career over the last couple of years, following um a long career, nearly 24 years, as um a deputy and a uh uh Senko in primary schools up here in Greater Manchester.
SPEAKER_01That's fantastic. And together, Kat, we're going to explore, aren't we, in a kind of connection with nature, what that really means, what the evidence tells us. And you know, I know that from your own work as well, you've witnessed so much kind of power and change, you know, and you know, what can be cultivated in the great outdoors.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, well, yeah, this kind of career pivot that I have uh taken on has kind of come around because of my love of being outside, really. And I think you know, I decided that a busy life, parent, mum of three, and you know, a very busy job in a city Manchester primary school, and I just felt like I'm throwing perimenopause into that mix. I definitely was getting close to burnout in 2023, and for me personally, kind of the most effective and beneficial thing was going outside, and you know, I think a lot of us experienced that through COVID and lockdown, um, where we didn't have a lot of other options other than going outside sometimes. And I definitely felt then, you know, a real tangible uh benefit to my mental health, which I think benefited my nervous system and my physical health as well. And I kind of started to put you know those things together and think if I am going to leave teaching and do something different, why not follow something that I know works for me and that kind of will make my daily work enjoyable because I love being outside, still wanted to work with children, still saw the benefit and the things I had to offer in that area. So um, yeah, retraining as a forest school leader, but very much focusing on the kind of well-being side of working with children outdoors that called to me, and so yeah, that's that's what I'm doing now.
SPEAKER_01Oh, you literally just took me back to lockdowns. You know, I never knew just how enjoyable that walk each day really would be, you know, what a lifeline that would have ended up becoming in a in a way, and although it was kind of quite comical, just everybody seemed to get dog, didn't they?
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_01Like, whoa, what happened? Where are all the dogs from? You know, um, but yeah, no, to be honest, cat, you know, in all seriousness, you're right, you know. I think you know, it was just that really important outlet, and I can definitely see kind of how that light bulb would have gone off of you know, how are we gonna pivot here? You know, what order is going to be the next iteration? I wonder whether we can go back to the child who became cats. So I'm just kind of thinking about, you know, sometimes, you know, even in childhood, like, you know, it kind of almost seems to be like something within us. And then I wonder whether was there like a favourite outdoor memory that you had or a place that really kind of made you happy at that point?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, so I grew up in the glamorous Bradford in West Yorkshire, but very close to you know, like countryside in the Yorkshire Dales. And my mum and dad were very into taking dragging me and my four siblings up into um went to the lakes walking a lot and Yorkshire Dales. And so, you know, I very much resisted that as a teen, but we camped a lot, you know, and that was very much my um having to teach parents that's all they could afford. So that was very much kind of my background anyway, and felt very at home being outside. And then when I got a bit older, I studied geography at uni, uh, mainly for the field trips, if I'm on it. Yeah, and uh yeah, you know, so I've always been what you might call us quite outdoorsy and very much loved in the summers at uni working, kind of did you know, um, American summer camps and all that kind of thing. So I've always felt very much at home in the outdoors, and when I went into teaching then, very much kind of, you know, loved to be doing anything outdoors, loved residentials, loved um forest school and kind of established that in my last school, helped establish that. Um, because I just think that being outdoors, particularly for the kind of children I've always been drawn to teaching, predominantly children with SEMH, you know, I I always see that they regulate quicker and stay regulated for longer when they're outside compared to when they're in a classroom environment, which I think for a lot of children I've taught through the years, you know, the challenges, either sensory or socially or cognitively, indoors are just huge. And I think when we take people outside, and there's a lot of science to back that up now, an increasing amount of science, which we might mention later, but you know, that is really now kind of demonstrating why certainly children and as I said, adults as well, we tend to our well-being improves outside, our cognitive function, um, and therefore, you know, our learning ability. So that's kind of what drew me into the career from it. Um, that's kind of the way I parent my kids now. I love them being outside and have encouraged them to do a D A V. Was at Buckingham Palace a couple of weeks ago with my eldest got a gold DOV. So yeah, I've definitely harangued my children into doing that as well. Because yeah, I am just a great advocate for being outside. I do think everybody does benefit from it in some way or another. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01I only got my bronze D AV cats. I'm hanging my head in shame, listeners. But do you know what? Yeah, I loved doing the American camps. Um I just thought in you know, first year of uni, I thought, oh well, you know, everybody else seems to be doing it. Ended up um working at um send camp um for children and adults, absolutely loved it. Went back every single summer, and I thought, oh, I'm definitely gonna be able to do this for the rest of my life, and then adult life starts, isn't it? But they really know how to do it though, don't they? Like really just kind of living in the outdoors, and you know, just the kind of whole thing was just based on nature, it was just incredible, actually.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, definitely brilliant experience, yeah.
SPEAKER_01I didn't realize so your parents were teachers as well, Kat.
SPEAKER_02I didn't know that. So I said I will not teach. There's no way I'm going into teaching. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Um quite literally in the blood. Wow, oh my goodness.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_01So, you know, if we think about maybe, you know, children today, then I mean, what do you think children understand about nature? I mean, are there any little like glimmers or you know, examples that you can share with our listeners that maybe you've picked up at forest school? And you know, what does it mean to them?
SPEAKER_02Well, currently the work I do, I work at um the CIC, which is a forest school. So we have lots of different groups coming to us, and I lead a weekly um special script, a secondary uh school that come every week, and they are predominantly kind of you're seven, eight, and nine kids who have they're autistic, a lot of them have additional learning difficulties. A lot of them, I'd say the majority of them are care experienced as well. So they come to us with you know varying levels of regulation, a lot of um perhaps, you know, uh differing experiences, even week to week, and they bring a coachload of staff with them just in case. But what I get the feedback from them week after week is that you know the difference in the way that those kids present when they're in the outdoors compared to when they're in the classroom environment, which you know, a lot of them academically are perhaps going to take alternative pathways, they're gonna take traditional GCSEs, etc. Um, and I think they know that perhaps that typical traditional academic pathway isn't for them. So perhaps that you know that affects their self-esteem and their understanding of what their future is going to look like. They come to Forest School, we try and make it very child-led and we kind of follow their interests. So we say, you know, what should we do, guys? This half-term, let's collaboratively plan. They always want to do fire, which you know, but not every week, but you know, the cooking, the fire, the lighting, the fire, the kind of really encouraging um participation around that to kind of treat that, you know, have respect for it, to understand it, to be able to do it safely, and to cook and eat and nourish ourselves. There's so much learning and so many amazing opportunities just from that, you know, hour and a half session where we make questionable uh things that we uh they're they're obsessed with making brownies. I keep trying to find a recipe that we can make in an hour and a half after drive at brownies. I'm sure it'll happen. You know, there's um there's one boy who comes and who really has got quite a um, you know, he has a few diagnoses around compulsions and he really loves to climb trees, and we have to do an awful lot of work around, you know, perhaps rather than just the punitive no, you're not climbing. If you keep climbing, you're not coming back. We're really working um with the staff and him on, you know, why do you think perhaps climbing that tree isn't a safe choice? You know, what could we do that allows you? Because I know you're desperate to climb that tree. What can we do that lets you climb that tree? Doesn't make all those staff have kittens, make sure you don't fall out and hurt yourself. Do you know what I mean? And the learning, because he's been empowered and given that kind of voice and encouraged to risk assess himself and perhaps a little bit of empathy of understanding the anxieties and the stress that the adults are facing, seeing him teetering 20 metres in the air at the top of a tree. Um, you know, you can see how much learning is in it for him and how he will he will, it's it's not just contextualized to that one session, you know, he'll really take that um that on with him. So, and I think just the way that they interact, because they bring several different kids from different year groups, so seeing them interact and share their life experiences, encouraging each other, you know, where they may have apprehensions or fear about doing certain activities. Um, I think just being outside in that child-led lower demand environment with boundaries and with expectations, but still that lower demand on them and the some of the kind of learning needs and barriers they bring with them intrinsically, it means that we see huge leaps in progress with them in terms of language and communication and working collaboratively, their well-being. Last week we finished the session. Um, we always just have a little snack and in the sat in the camp at camping chairs around the fire, and the weather was lovely. And I just said, Right guys, um, close your eyes. And we try and bring a little kind of mindfulness element into every session. And so, and you know, with some of those kids, a little bit streetwise, a few of them. I thought it was going to be a big ask and they might be a bit resistant. But honestly, within a few minutes, I was catching the eyes of the staff, and we were all like, I can't believe they're doing it. They all had their eyes closed, they were taking it so seriously. I was kind of doing this little mindfulness, um, you know, talk through, imagining they're all kind of walking through, you know, their body and relaxing each part of it, and it was so amazing. And then at the end of it, I said, So try and do my best yoga, soothing voice. Guys, if you want to keep your eyes closed and just relax for a few moments, thinking they might all jump off and up and leg it. Yeah, so the majority of them just kept there, stayed there, kept their eyes closed. Nobody was kind of self-conscious or giggling at each other or sniggering. It was so amazing. And then I said, How does that feel? And they all fed back, I feel so relaxed now, right? And it was, yeah, it would it was so much more effective than I was expecting.
SPEAKER_01Yes, oh my goodness. And you know what? I mean, it's just so meaningful because the fact that they felt comfortable when you've even closed their eyes in the first never might actually then do the do the task like full stuff.
SPEAKER_02I was not expecting it, and there's a few characters that I thought would just opt out and do their own thing, but they all did it, it was amazing. It'll never happen again, but it was amazing.
SPEAKER_01Oh, you know, well, that filled your cup. Remember that, Kat. You need to like journal that because that's the thing, isn't it, to kind of look back at. I mean, do you think maybe you know, in education we've almost become so focused on productivity that we've kind of forgotten how to simply be in a relationship with the world around us?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I think so, definitely. And I think, you know, when my kids have done for a school at their schools, I you know, the other mums at the gate when they were picking them up, they'd been moaning about the clothes smelling of smoke and things like that. And I get that, we're all busy with an additional load of smoky clothes to clean. But you know, the benefits of it, I don't I think it's really rare to find, particularly primary school children, and you know, secondaries are much more resistant to going down the path of outdoor learning and forest school. But I think you would be hard pushed to find uh children in any setting, special mainstream, whatever it is, who doesn't enjoy being outside. You know, the weather tends to be lower down the priority for children than it does for another exactly. The being outside just tends to appeal to younger children, and I think it's something about you know that um that the whatever it is that's in us when we're younger that perhaps we lose as we get um get older. And you know, it will be staff when I'm when I'm working with visiting school groups, it'll be staff that don't wear the correct equipment or they're just standing around so they get cold moaning. The children just rarely do comment on um on the weather or discomfort. And some children bring you know fears of perhaps uh insects or stings or you know getting muddy. But you know, and this sensory news that some children, because we bring it a lot of um, we have a lot of send children visiting us, and they do bring those kind of fears and worries, and it's great because that's something we can tangibly work on and respect and you know make safe and risk-assessed for them. But I find in my experience that it tends to be adults that bring more of those fears and barriers with them, um, and perhaps a dislike for being outside. Um but we work on that too.
SPEAKER_01Oh my god, what don't you do? Amazing. Maybe just going back to the young man you were saying, obviously, with the compulsions, and I was just thinking actually, you know, it's not you were talking about, you know, we're learning skills. I think it's more than that. I think we're almost, you know, constru like constructing brains and stretching prefrontal cortexes. You know, for those of you who may not really know the parts of the brain, that's kind of like the decision maker bit, that's the bit cat, isn't it? That's going to really help with that kind of like you know, planning and logic. And you know, do I climb all the way to the top of this tree or do I want to go up a little bit? Or I mean, yeah, I don't know kind of what your thoughts are there around kind of like neuroplasticity and sort of sciencey bits.
SPEAKER_02Definitely, because you know, we have a home ed group that come every week, so they tend to be a couple of them are families who are, you know, ideologically, they don't want their children to go to school, and then I'd say the majority of them tend to be families who perhaps had a bad experience with their children in school, so they've taken them out, you know, as a kind of reaction that the school didn't work for them and their family. So we, you know, obviously they're attracted to come to us for this low demand um environment. A lot of the children tend to have neurodiversity as a feature of their brains. And I think that, you know, we will find them so quickly being able to kind of because there's we do have a little bit of an expectation at the beginning, which some children struggle with, that we need you to sit down and kind of listen because we're going to go through the hazards and the risks and we want everyone to stay safe. And some children kind of immediately I think have a reaction to that because they think this is school and I can't do this. There's other children who just, you know, perhaps learn in a way that's not sitting and looking at the grown-up who's talking. So we have to be very flexible about that, but still, you know, kind of we need you to listen to this bit because we want you to be safe. But just in a really short time, one little girl that I can think of came from, you know, really struggling with that expectation and would stim a lot and would kind of vocally stim, which then made it difficult for other people to hear. So we did a lot of work around that, and then mum not quite you could see mum's anxiety levels rising because so she just put more demand on the little girl, which increased the stimmy, and so we did a lot of work on that, and I honestly contract, and it's definitely since after Christmas. So, what where are we now, June? So, within probably four or five months of coming weekly, she will now sit so calmly. You know, we have things that she holds, she does a little bit of the input because that empowers her and gives her a bit of a focus. So, in terms of her understanding the rationale for why we do that, understanding the time limit around it, understanding a little bit of the empathy and how perhaps, you know, not shaming her and telling her nobody can hear when you like that and do all that on me, but just you know, not putting pressure on to mask or anything, but just to show her that perhaps. And we did this in a lot of little collaborative conversations and it took a long time. But she now, you know, it's a tangible difference in her ability to sit, to know it's gonna end, to know that it's it's not gonna be that long, to know that she has a little bit of power in it and she can opt out as well, but she can articulate and express why she might need to do that. Yeah, I can see that that is so so powerful for her, so brilliant for mum, because mum doesn't feel the stress. And I can see that that's the skill set she can take away with her now that she knows do you know what? When there is something that's tricky, it doesn't have to get worse and harder for me. But with with other people around me, I can kind of work through that that event or that expectation. Um, yeah, and I can develop the skill set to do that. So yeah, I think we see neuroplasticity at work all the time, not just because it's outdoors, but I think being outdoors, there's something about the environment where you know, we're if we're talking about a specific challenge, we can perhaps dip into it and then we can go, look at that. Is that a black bird? Oh, I can hear the wind in the tree. You know, there's something about the environment that's very soothing anyway. There's something about there's a lot of distractions that we can look at, kind of that we can see, we can hear, we can feel, we can smell, that that mean that the conversations are kind of aided by being outside, and you know, um, there's a lot of other children that perhaps facing similar things, so the expectations feel a little bit less as well. So yeah, I definitely think that we've been able to work on a lot of things like that with children and see great, great progress. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01It's so magic, it really is. Because what I'm taking from that cat, correct me if I'm wrong, but mum benefited just as much as little girl just as much.
SPEAKER_03And I think there's so many of those.
SPEAKER_01Sorry, gorgeous.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, no, no, please do, yeah. I was gonna say there's so many of those families are coming to us from, as I said, you know, they may have had really tricky experiences with their children in mainstream school. Um, um for a myriad of reasons have then decided either switch schools a few times or gone to a flexus uh timetable or brought them out of school altogether. And they've really experienced trauma through that, you know. As a mum of a neurodiverse child myself, I know that that whole diagnosis process, getting an EHCP, and I was fortunate that he had a great experience through school and great support, but not not everybody has that experience. And I think, you know, that the the parents of that often feel quite traumatized, you know, because they've they've just been batted around from service to service, they've been advocating and and pushing for their children's needs so hard that they're they're drained and exhausted and quite quite traumatized by the educational experience.
SPEAKER_01So yeah, Kat um coming up at some point, I'm not sure when it will be released, but Graham Chatterley was talking about just that um on a previous episode, you know, in terms of that kind of you know, that battle and people maybe not understanding where you're coming from and all of that good stuff. And I just think actually being in nature, we're all equals, aren't we?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, we did um a recent uh Blackburn and Darwin have a parent S E N D channel. Champions that they're trying to empower the tends to be mums. I'm not I'm gonna say parents, but they were all mums. Um you know, that perhaps is just how those families worked, but they were um parents of children who were um not all in special schools, but were perhaps certainly all on the pathways to get diagnoses and um and EHCPs, and perhaps children in special settings as well. And they had kind of formed this group of um of parents who were going to act as champions to benefit newer parents, you know, beginning on that journey, and they came to us for a series of six uh what we called nature um nature well sessions with us, and they were so amazing because a lot of those moms were really, you know, came in white trainers, were like, oh no, fancy person, don't I do it? Oh my goodness, I'm gonna lend you some wellies. But you know, the the the impact that had on them and the feedback we got from them was amazing because we just got them together and they all they you know some of them knew each other, some didn't, but the so the strength was in them um being supportive to each other because they all have these similar home lives. But I gave them at the beginning of every session, I kind of said, you know what, I'm gonna start this session by giving you permission. If you need to have your phone on because you have somebody that might need to get in touch with you, obviously do. But for this hour and a half, I'm gonna give you permission to leave your home life at home if that's gonna serve you. And you know, we are gonna try very hard to be in nature, connecting with nature and connecting with each other in nature. And the the nature world training I did have these three outcomes, just these three really simple three hours, which are at the end of a session, you should feel relaxed, restored, and revitalized. So something in you is restored, something in you is revitalized to go back and face this, you know, very tricky moment you might be having, um, and that you would feel relaxed as well. And so I would kind of start with a grounding activity, always have fire because I just think it's a lovely, you know, particularly if people feel perhaps socially a little bit awkward, it's a lovely kind of center to focus on, it kind of you know brings that feeling of well-being and community. And then we would go off and often do a walk. And I would sometimes a little skill I learned on my training was to say, right, this is a silent noticing walk, because then you're taking the pressure off people making small talk and feeling like they have to say, How's your little one getting on in school? And that can be quite traumatizing to kind of go through it all. And really, I wanted them to be able to leave that behind. So I would say to them, okay, I'm gonna just say we're not speaking where that kind of social demand is switched off because I want you to focus on the notes, and we would go for this little walk, we would often do a technique which is called um a sit spot. So you would just go and choose somewhere in a big area of the woods. We did this a couple of months ago, so when the bluebells were out, and we would go and sit in the, you know, just on your own in a place that just appeals to you for some reason because it looks relaxing or beautiful or whatever it is, and you would just sit there, and then I would do a really um horrendous big wolf whistle to get them all back after about 10 minutes, but we would come back, and then obviously they would wander over like they just had an hour's massage or something. They were so calm and relaxed, and then you know, we would wander back and then have uh tea and cake round the fire, and all I would do then, you know, just as a minimum, would say, Okay, what did you notice? Because there's so little demand because you're just giving a narrative of what you notice. I'm not asking how you fell, or did you have any life-changing epiphanies while you were sat under the tree? It was literally just how did what did you notice, you know, in terms of your senses. And by the end of those sessions, every one of them was like, Can we stay longer? Can we come again? I feel so relaxed. So I think you know, I was not doing anything revolutionary, I was just holding space for them, providing this environment that was safe for them to have permissions and not worry and think and constantly be talking about their caring responsibilities. Yeah. I think, yeah, every parent of children with SEN should have um opportunity for that because it's it's really can make the difference between their sanity and not.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, well, of course. And I think one thing we know, Kat, and you know, we talk about it a lot at TICS, don't we, in terms of trauma-reformed practice is that healing doesn't come just because someone tells us that we're safe, and kind of I'm really getting the impression here that you know you are healing nervous systems, even if you don't know it, because they are experiencing safety themselves. I mean, you know, how empowering it is. You know, we we often talk about the principle of choice, you know, you're choosing your sit spot, you are creating your own safety because you know, maybe you're lying in the bluebells if you're not afraid of being stuck by a bee. I mean, that you know, that's kind of very empowering, isn't it? I mean, I wonder whether, you know, when you're facilitating art, you're kind of quite consciously thinking about those principles and having those.
SPEAKER_02And giving, you know, if there was somebody that was perhaps I got a feeling was particularly anxious, perhaps would be worried about going out of eyesight of us. So, you know, I would just as I'm describing this activity, would be saying, you know, some people find it really feels a bit safer to lean against a tree and give them a quick kind of snapshot about um, you know, there's a lot of science that shows if we sit somewhere where we don't know what's behind us because these woodlands were new to them, that that is very kind of um, we stay on guard a little bit, you know, our nervous systems are uh kind of uh primed for escape and and uh to escape danger if we don't exactly know what's behind us. So find a lovely big solid tree and lean against it, find a little, and they all did come back when I kind of asked them to describe their sit spot, they all would have talked about somewhere a little bit cocooned, perhaps cozy, you know, and we never really went into the science of that, but they were seeking out somewhere that felt safe. I think that you know, had the vegetation around them that helped them to feel safe. You know, I said to them, stay within where you can see me if that helps you, because I'll just stay at stand still here. I told them which big terrible noise I'm gonna make, which is gonna interrupt their peace and quiet, stay where you can see and hear me if that makes you feel more comfortable. Um, but yeah, safety, psychological safety in the outdoors, which if you're not used to it, you know, for me being outdoors feels very safe, but it's that's not true for everybody. So, you know, I think the things we understand about safety and about um being in community are really important to kind of make explicit, perhaps at the beginning of those um those little tasks that I sent them on.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I love that. So you were literally then the secure base, weren't you? People knew where you were, they could come back to you, they could either stay close or go further afield, waiting for that dreadful wolf whistle. Um you know, kind of we know what to expect. And I'm gonna remember that with a tree because I do love being in nature, but I don't like knowing um not knowing, sorry, what's behind me. So I had sitting against a tree or maybe nearer to vegetation. Yeah, I do feel more comfortable actually.
SPEAKER_02Definitely, and I think you know, the area where we were, there were a lot of people walking their dogs. A lot of people don't want to be sitting, they feel a bit peculiar just sitting there when somebody walks past them as well. But they didn't want you know a man with a dog to walk past them and start a conversation that they weren't expecting. So I kind of primed them for that. I said, you know, if you go to that bit there, that's near the path. So a dog walker could well walk past you. If you go in that little area there, you you're gonna be really unseen and and not noticed by anybody else. Yeah, I read some, just going back to what we were saying about that nothing behind you. Um I read, and I wish I knew what the research was, but I read this kind of thing about when people are designing cities, and just recently, I don't want to keep mentioning Buckingham Palace, but when I was in London a couple of weeks ago, me and my daughter went up to you know, um by Regent's Canal up by um Coldrops Yard, you know, behind King's Cross Station. Yeah, and it was this gorgeous kind of summer Friday evening, so everybody was there after having a drink, and there's these kind of big steps down to the river. And I was just reading about how people, when they go into kind of city areas on their lunch breaks, they're designed so that people can sit at a kind of view where they can see everything going on, but there's nothing happening behind them because that's what us as humans we need. That kind of I know nobody's gonna sneak up on me, but I've got a good vantage point as well. And I think it goes back to our ancestral brain where we you know on the keeping safe but looking for predators as well. And so I think that you know, you really will see that, particularly the way children play when they're seeking those wide games at forest school, they will try and be in a really great vantage point with something cozy and safe behind them to protect them from fear from behind. So I think that's pretty programmed into us, yeah.
SPEAKER_01It really, and hence I suppose the appeal of things like uh-oh, rabbit hole, are you ready? Gen building, like um, what are they calling like the um oh like the wicker arch things? What they call that that's not the name, is it? But you know, you can like build yeah, willow, willow, yeah, Caribbean obviously disappointed in me. That willow like creation, wicker willow yes, yeah. I guess because that's almost like being in the womb, and it's that kind of doing. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02With that special school group, we did a whole kind of um half-term on that where we started off making little kind of small dens, and then we really looked at, you know, what is it that that why do we make dens? What are we looking for when we make a den? And bearing in mind that a lot of these kids perhaps had had earlier experiences, not in a traditional family home. So perhaps, you know, when I was describing it, I was very conscious to not, you know, describe what might be everybody's experience. But ironically, a lot of them had perhaps done more dim building than I would expect because they may have moved from home to home a lot, they may have been very quick to try and find their own little space. So they were very adept at this activity. When I was saying, when you make a den, what do you want? And they were all like, I want to be safe. I want to be safe from predators. You know, I was talking about animals in nature, but also us as people when we make a den, um, they really got they got the challenge completely, and then they went off and we kind of gathered things and made made dens. And some of them very much were keen on going in the mud kitchen and getting kind of pots and pans and plates because they were like, Yeah, food, refreshment. I need to be sustained in my den. Whereas other people were like, I need a fortress, I need nobody to be able to get in. And I thought, wow, I think the dens that they're building here are really quite um, you know, describing a lot of their ways that they know they need to make themselves feel safe and and nurtured. So yeah, it was a really interesting task, actually.
SPEAKER_01Uh goodness, it sounds like it could almost help people to develop like a stronger sense of self in a way. I mean, have you observed that in children and the adults?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah. And where I was kind of like, are we gonna do are these gonna be dens that are just for you on your own? Are they gonna be a maybe you're gonna invite somebody in and make because us as humans we tend to do better when we've have got other people to lean on, and they were very keen to just most of them be on their own, which again I think might have been described indicative of of some of their experiences where they've had to kind of bend for themselves a lot. Um, so then I saw that as a bit of a challenge, right? Let's work on being collaborative and creating community. And and your den is so near the water source. So can we work as a team and be able to get some water? And some of them got a bit visionary with it and were like, no, they'll have to die of drought. But um but you know, making it a game and making it fun and using imagination helped. Um, but yeah, and I think you know, there's this thing called attention restoration theory. I don't know if you've heard about that. I haven't got more. I'm telling you something, Jess. Um it's it's just this kind of um, you know, I think it, I think there's a lot of understanding about it, but science is is growing in that understanding that, you know, if you go outside, or perhaps the pressure on people to learn if we're in a meeting or if we're in a lesson, you know, where it's very focused and and I'm needing to take on a lot and be very focused and concentrating, you know, we can get cognitive overload, as we know, when we can, you know, just reach perhaps um our threshold of what we can take on board and that can be the day-to-day or across the year, etc. But there's a lot of signs to show that attention restoration theory is that concept of going outside and where the pressure to focus on a single task is less because our eyes are scanning the environment, that you know, more of our senses are stimulated because we're hearing things, we're smelling things, we're seeing things, we might feel the sun on our face or a breeze on our skin. Um, and just 15 to 20 minutes of doing that means that you can then have a kind of restored cognitive capacity, a clearer focus, a clearer mind, you know, and be able to um go back into that meeting or lesson or whatever that high demand setting is um with a greater capacity. So, you know, I think I think we find that definitely that where children get off the minibus, arrive with us, perhaps quite dysregulated, perhaps they've had a tricky morning, you know, you'll feel a little bit of tension between certain groups or certain staff members and children, and you literally you could time it that within 15 to 20 minutes that kind of their nervous system is relaxed, they're clinging on to whatever the the beef walls has let go a little bit, um, you know, and and their communication capacity, their rational problem solving, so many, you know, um, of those cognitive and well-being benefits and communication benefits, you can see them really quickly. So, yeah, there's definitely a lot of science to back that up, I think. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01That's so incredible. I'm thinking about our listeners, Kat, in terms of we might have people listening in from maybe very urban primary secondary schools, we might have family workers, social workers who are thinking, I haven't really got great access to nature. Are there any of these bits that we still might be able to integrate into our practice?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, definitely. I think um, you know, I think amazing if you've got forests to go to like I do, but yeah, amazing. But my last school that I worked at was right in the centre of Manchester, and you know, we had a big view of the prison from our school playground. Um it was built on a brownfield site, so nothing would grow up, there's hardly any top title, but you know, we really made a kind of um a little cozy area. We just built um a little simple shed, there was a few supplings of trees, and we just made it that it was an area where the rest of the school weren't allowed to go, so that made it special. But I think even if you can't even access that, you know, a lot of us live perhaps in towns and cities, but there is nature just on the fringes on the very edges of those. You don't have to go out into what we might class as well. Yeah, there's a lot of life. There's life will grow wherever you uh wherever there's a little bit of opportunity for it. Yeah, particularly this time of year. So um, yeah, I think it's something around, you know, there's so much science that shows that sunlight on our face for 10 uh 10 minutes every day, ideally first thing in the morning, even if it's not sunny, it's a bit murky in Manchester today. But you know, getting that, um trying to just get into a habit really of getting that fresh air and that sunlight and breathing, you know, um somewhere nice and quiet, listening to bird song. There's this I read that's really interesting about the frequency, particularly of a blackbird singing. So if you can get up early enough at this time of year and hear that, um, that regulates our nervous system in ways that we don't fully understand why. But the benefits to our well-being and our calmness um are huge. And I think even, you know, bringing plants into your house, you know, or your office or wherever you're based at work, have try and not have plastic ones, try and get a couple of real house plants in there because there's so much about the microbiome of plants, you know, that we're increasingly understanding that soil has a benefit, a positive benefit to our nervous systems. Yeah. So doing anything that um, you know, even if it's 10 minutes of not being indoors, or even if it's bringing the outdoors inside, um, can have can have huge uh benefits. I've read about this study the other day actually, that um that they, I think in 2024, in it was in the UK somewhere, they had uh some patients who were having gallbladder surgery and they deliberately split half of them into two separate recovery wards. One of them they looked out of a window onto a brick wall, the other half um they could see trees and greenery and a kind of hospital garden. And the recovery rate, so the the patients that could see the trees asked for less painkillers, they recorded feeling kind of less distressed and upset following their operation. And on average, they went home two days earlier than the patients who'd had you know similar levels of fitness before the operation and had the same operation, but they'd been looking at a brick wall. So it shows that just seeing greenery through you know from your bed, because they were all bedbound for a few days, they that that helped their physical recovery rates, which is just crazy. There's a lot of science that we're just beginning to understand.
SPEAKER_01So much science, and actually, there was something I read the other day. I don't know whether you saw that news article about um the new outdoor critical care roof garden. It came from London, wasn't that amazing? I think it was a 60-bed critical care unit, and basically every patient could still kind of have their treatments outside in the garden.
SPEAKER_02Wow, and I just thought you had it because that was in the centre of London where access to green space is so limited. But put it on the roof, yeah. I saw that. That looked amazing, didn't it? And it was a patient who was looked at pretty high dependency, didn't she? But they had all the ability to connect to oxygen and everything she needed there, yeah, and she was brilliant about it. Yeah, I saw that.
SPEAKER_01Literally a critical care bay, you know, surrounded by you know trees and lavender and really multi-sensory, and again, the 12 of families visiting and all of that stuff is just so brilliant, as well. Really, really is.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, so I think we've got to think, you know, don't feel like oh, I haven't got a huge, you know, forest or woodland or park to get to, therefore, this isn't for me because it, you know, it really is for everybody. And I think you know, a park a forest is the is the ideal, a park is the second best, but just something where you can see, you know, even like a little terrace or even a few pots or even indoors, but being able to look out on greenery, we know that has beneficial effects as well. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01I love that. Now I hate to raise it, but we know many children are spending a lot more time interacting with a screen than a little bit of greenery outside, a terrace, a park, even better still a forest than previous generations could have ever imagined. Do you think technology is a barrier? Like are technology and nature opposites or can they coexist?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, that's really interesting. I was talking to my two teenagers uh who were at home last night about their proposal. Well, it's gonna happen now, the van. Um their 14-year-old has strong feelings on this. But um, yeah, I would say that you know, anyone who is a parent or works regularly with kids who have extended time on screen, you know, can really. I mean, I'm I actually think there's so many benefits to being on screen time in terms of connection and you know, testing out what is socially appropriate and perhaps you know, children who might find face-to-face um socializing a barrier and finding your people in your community, there's so many strengths to it, and I think you know, we we wouldn't need to be teaching children and young people how to use technology appropriately rather than just banning it, that's just my opinion. But um, to your point on you know, does it rival or take away from time outside? I would say yeah, it does, you know, and I think that if we could get if we could do a little kind of survey of say, okay, you know, the weekend where you're just on screens, and then next weekend we're gonna get out in nature and then we're gonna really try with the same people, compare and be really honest about how does that feel for me? Because I think that's the thing that's missing in this whole conversation about banning screen time, you know, and I know they've already done that in Australia and surveyed Australian teenagers, and they've all said it's impacting me negatively. So we've got to be asking these young people, you know, can you tangibly feel that you feel better in your well-being and in your mental health if you're outside? Because if we're forcing it on them and it's for your own good, they're not gonna do it, are they? So we've got to be doing it in a way that is they're self-motivated to do it, they they feel the benefits themselves we can guide them and try and you know ask those questions about noticing. Say, do you feel relaxed? Is anything in you now restored or revitalized, you know, um, when you're outside and socializing, does that feel different to when you're socializing um in front of a screen, you know? And we've gotta we've got to get them on board with it because they won't do it if it's just um an adult enforced activity. But I know Myself as a parent, I definitely know. And luckily, my boy, my two boys that are at home are real big footballers, so they go outside, and I don't think they see that as being in nature, but I think they're accessing the benefits of being out in nature alongside a lot of aggressive chat and footballs. But you know, it's it's being outside, it's it's accessing everything we know that is beneficial about being outside, and I would say they perhaps feel a greater sense of community and connection and belonging um from that time outside than they would if they'd spent that hour on a screen. I don't know. I don't know. I think I just I think we need to be including their voice in it and getting them to see the benefits um from their perspective rather than just us telling them it's for it's good for them because as we know that's not going to work very much.
SPEAKER_01No, and even if they are what do you say, swearing angrily about footballs or you know, whatever it be, that's still cathartic, isn't it? You know, because it has to be serene and silent impact.
SPEAKER_02No, and I think when we do a lot of sessions at forest school, I try and plan them so there is a mindful aspect, there is a calm, thoughtful, noticing aspect, something crafty for people who like to do that, something practical for something, and then something really let loose. And you know, let's do a big wide game with a lot of big gross motor skills and um and noise, and really, you know, because I think we've got to try and tap into every um aspect of of learning, of of physicality and of communication and of you know well-being for the different children we have with us as well. Because, like you said, being outside isn't just sitting quietly under a tree, it means it means a lot of different things to a lot of different people. So uh yeah, try and get as many facets of that in as possible. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Oh, definitely. I really don't want to open up Pandora's box, but does this week's social media news kind of yeah? I don't know how that sits with you in terms of do you feel it's gonna be helpful? Is it going to maybe mean that young people have got more time to kind of get out there and and just be?
SPEAKER_02Well, yeah, like I was just saying, I was chatting about my about this to my sons, and I just think that yeah, thoughts I think that um that if we are saying being on online on certain platforms is harmful to young people's mental health, we haven't quite got the evidence to back that up yet. So therefore, and also we know that banning things, particularly with young people who are very tech savvy as well. I wonder whether, and the way we know adolescent brains work, you tell me I can't do something, I might want to do it even more. Also, yeah. So I wonder about that a little bit, and like I was saying, I think you know, the the ban, the outright ban in Australia. Um, you know, they've they've done a quite an early survey of people and of young people who are not able to access those sites now, and the majority of them have just said, no, it's actually been detrimental to my mental health. So, you know, that's an early survey that could be people kicking back against it, you know, but that's their that's what they've found just in their first survey after just introducing it a few months ago in Australia. So it kind of implies to me that if if trying to improve our young people's mental health is our rationale for doing it, what about all those other things that we know are harmful to mental health? You know, our systems not being invested in, our young people perhaps struggling with the way that our schools are going now, you know, there's just so many other things that we know are harmful to mental health. Also, the way that the algorithms work, feeding children these terrible things that they shouldn't be seeing, where, you know, this addictive nature of them, those are the kind of structural changes that I would be looking at rather than just than just an outright ban. Um, but if it means that people are gonna ch young people and children are gonna go outside more, um, I'm all for that because I do think that will be benefit better for them beneficially overall. But yeah, I think it's yeah, I'm just a little bit conflicted on a ban because I'm not sure.
SPEAKER_01What do you think? Do you it's I think it's quite radical, and like you've said, it kind of worries me, you know. Again, you know, when we've brought in bands previously, what has happened, you know, kind of more behind the scenes, kind of sort of you know, young people finding other ways of doing it, fake profiles, you know. I think there's ways behind it, and I'd almost rather know what young people were doing, yeah, and then feeling that they could share those things with me rather than potentially doing it in secret. Because, like you say, you know, they they have their own minds, and for some of our young people, it's going to make them even more compelled, isn't it, to kind of feel that they want to do that because that's what the adults have, you know.
SPEAKER_03I know, I know.
SPEAKER_02Um, and I think also we've got to teach people how to use things, you know, and when that dopamine hit stops, time to come off, we've got to teach them because technology is not going anywhere, is it? So we've got to teach them how to use it in a way that benefits their mental health rather than a detriment to it. And we've got to think about those more marginalized communities of young people that get a lot from being online, you know, because of whatever barrier they have to socializing, practical, physical, neurodiversity, whatever it is, you know, they can find a lot of community online. And if we take those platforms away, we're gonna we're gonna harm some young people, I think. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01I know. I do worry about isolation, perhaps for as you were saying before, some of our, you know, very neurodiverse young people where actually being on a screen is safe. There's a there's a wall there, there's a barrier to kind of protect and hold, um, which you know, I think we're gonna have to be really careful now to sort of design that in, aren't we, in another way, so that they still get that kind of feeling of safe connection with others. Yeah, definitely.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, it's a complicated subject, I think. I'm not sure a BAM outright is the answer. But yeah, but there's so much harm online as well. And I know a lot of parents who've lost children um after harmful content online feel very strongly about it, and so I just think it's a really it's a big conversation for everybody, isn't it?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it really is, and one we're gonna have to keep a very close eye on. Yeah, I wonder maybe, you know, when you look at the challenges that face children, families, communities, and we'd mentioned a lot really during our conversation today. What gives you hope? No pressure.
SPEAKER_02I um my son asked me if he should put a wash on yesterday. That gives me hope. Who's never done that before? That's hopeful. I think he wanted something, but I'm taking hope from that. I see, and I think I think, you know, from my position of being in school in a very traditional sense as a teacher for uh yeah, like say nearly a quarter of a century, and now working with a lot of children who are being home educated. I think that whilst that feels like quite an unregulated space, and I'm gonna develop, and you know, I I think I think schools are changing. I think there's a big appetite for a different way of educating people. But I also, and you know, I know the China government's wondering about some kind of legislation around that, and I think that needs to be done very carefully. But that does give me hope that maybe we're gonna be able to be a little bit different in the way we educate people, and maybe not everybody has to fit this shape, you know, might change. And I think that you know, there seems to be an increase in outdoor learning, both provisions like mine, but within school settings as well. Because I think and I feel hopeful that people are beginning to really understand that if we want children to be able to stay better emotionally regulated, you know, even so that they learn better and we have a calmer school setting, but for their own benefits, for their mental health and their well-being, that some element of outdoor learning is beneficial. I think that is really commonplace, as I said, amongst the primary sector. I'd love the secondary sector to agree with that as well. Um yeah. But I think that yeah, that makes me feel helpful because I think that is somewhere that we're all kind of um beginning to understand. And like I say, whether it's that us all having our daily walks in COVID made that difference, that there's increasing science and understanding of it. Um, you know, there's many more TV shows, people are younger people are getting into garning and horticulture. I read some statistics about that, that that's becoming a much more um enjoyable thing for people to do. I don't want to go down the whole tradwives homesteaders on uh on social media, but I think it's becoming quite desirable to um, you know, to have perhaps a um a more rustic life for some people that seems um to be appealing. So yeah, I do feel a lot of hope about that. I think um we just need to keep looking after our um our green spaces and keep understanding the benefits of it, which I feel is is uh an increasing momentum now. So I feel really hopeful about that, yeah, for young people but for adults as well.
SPEAKER_01For all of us. And I think for me, you know, I do truly believe that more young people now are starting to become more eco-aware, starting to have a real conscience of, you know, where our planet's at, and you know, maybe some of the changes that we can make. And I think it brings me nicely back to actually how I started today's episode, which was that quote, Kat, you know, we are now in the mountains and they are in us. I wonder whether, as we kind of think about bringing today's conversation to a close, sadly, because I've really enjoyed it. I don't know about you, but what mean to you, you know, and and maybe what might we want our listeners to kind of take away from today?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I think something that struck me quite recently, and I don't know where I read it or who said it, but um you know, it's not that we go into nature and we just go, right, I'm I'm putting my wellies on, I have to go into nature and leave the office behind, or it's that we are nature, you know, we're we're not any different to nature. We're animals, we, you know, this increasing science and understanding of how birds song, soil, sunlight on our faces, triggering the production of vitamin D, which is beneficial, all these different um physical aspects to being in nature is because we are part of nature, we're not distinct from it, you know. And I think since the Industrial Revolution, we've kind of become much more indoor people. But I think that our increasing understanding now of that that we benefit from being in nature because we are part of it and we're trying not to be so distinct from it. Um, I think that understanding, and you know, that new I read about the new GCSE in natural history that's coming out, and I think that yeah, that is going to be something that perhaps hopefully lots of schools will offer, and so that increasing understanding of um the natural world and our part in it, you know, in a in a bid to not not degradate it anymore, but also to understand our place in it and how we contribute to it and we're part of it.
SPEAKER_01So that's cool. I love that. Oh, well, Kat, thank you so very much. You're welcome. I've learnt tons. I cannot begin to tell you, and hopefully our listeners have enjoyed as well. And you are available, aren't you, for you know, people are interested in this topic, you know, and maybe want something online, or you know, that maybe want you to go to them and maybe do a half day, a day, I don't know, Kat, maybe if you want to sort of chat people through sorts of things that you can offer.
SPEAKER_02Definitely, because I think people might think, oh, that sounds all very, you know, technical and scientific. It's so easy to pick up, and I'd be so happy to, you know, help people if they're in a school setting, if they're working with children in a residential setting, or wherever, you know, even if they're not working with children, but I would be so happy to share, you know, just some little grounding tips, some noticing tips, just those little easy to pick up and remember without loads of uh reading and research. I'd be happy to guide people, you know, or or even record something that people can uh grab hold of. But um, yeah, anything I can do that helps people appreciate the benefits of being outside, I will be happy to help you.
SPEAKER_01Oh, Kat, thank you so much. You're welcome.
SPEAKER_02Thanks for having me, Jess. It's been welcome.
SPEAKER_01Thank you, Kat.
SPEAKER_00Thank you so much for joining us. To learn more, visit the Trauma Informed Consultancy Services website. We'll see you next time.